Theresa May: UK must leave European single market • Hacker News Board

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#201

Post by Gupie » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #41

I find her language very problematic. I didn't vote to leave—so when she claims to be speaking for the British people, I'm left wondering how my voice can count. I'm part of 48% of 72.2%; a lot of people are likely to share my concern. We need a general election. She speaks of what 'she wants'—the most problematic part of this surreal theatrical horror story is fact we the country didn't vote for her. I don't want th…

We need a second referendum on what is finally agreed with the EU. The people are allowed to change their mind.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#202

Post by gonvaled » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #182

planetjones wrote: post #7

I think Britain will eventually come out of this stronger. However, it's clear in the interim period (which could be 5-10 years I think) there could be huge transitional issues. Whether that pain is worth suffering, only time will tell. Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The WTO exists for trade and I would much prefer it to be the vehicle for trade, rather than groups of g…

> Personally, I am not a huge fan of these currency, trading or political blocs. The EU seems to be pretty effective at preventing wars within Europe. That's a good enough pro to cancel out all the other cons on my list. But hey, it's been three generations since our last big war, we are probably overdue on a reminder of why fully-industrialized total war is not such a great idea.

Honestly, I think the war argument is a bit outdated, and not relevant currently.

I like the EU for what it offers me: a market where I can buy and sell things knowing that some minimum rules are being respected, an area which allows me, as a person the freedom that I think every human being has, to move and work wherever he wants (although this is currently limited to EU citizens), and lots of other advantages.

Peace is good collateral effect.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#203

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #181

rayiner wrote: post #54

It'll be interesting to see how the UK handles this. I suspect they will fail, but they should be applauded for trying. A single market is not an unmitigated good. The single market that exists within the U.S. is the major reason why federalism has failed. When governments can't exercise control over commerce with external entities, it becomes impossible to really chart a destiny distinct from the larger union. Massa…

In the EU we have extremely different countries. What is exactly your point?

And the EU will either end up with a bunch of very different people unhappy about being forced into the same polity, or it will end. America proves you cannot have Democratic sovereign states tied together by an overarching union.

America is a lot more homogenous than Europe and even then it's intensely straining here. Neither Alabama nor Massachusetts are happy being forced into the same polity with each other--voting in the same elections and being governed by the same laws.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#204

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

gpderetta wrote: post #189

raesene6 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However the majority of the people who voted (and remember here that the turnout was higher than most UK elections) voted to exit which clearly included border controls. Border controls cannot be achieved without leaving the single market, so if we're honouring the democratic process this is the only possible path.

The was no reference to border control in the referendum ballot.

it was a key stated pledge of the leave campaign, so unless you were watching some other referendum campaign the suggestion that border control had nothing to do with it is disingenuous at best.

In case anyone wants to argue that immigration wasn't a key part of the leave campaign... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/eu-referend... a key pledge related to immigration directly and another was closely associated

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#205

Post by aleksei » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:29 PM UTC

unfortunateface wrote: post #175

I think we should replace politicians and obviously flawed democratic process with a top down style economy run by Economists. Obviously we will have to have some kind of mechanism for choosing between these Economists, as some have shown to be pretty far off in their predictions. Some sort of system based on the casting and counting of votes perhaps.

A world run by economists sounds even harsher than the one we have now.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#206

Post by senorjazz » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:29 PM UTC

detritus wrote: post #183

mangecoeur wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the UK haven't quite gotten over that whole global empire thing. Every now and then they make documentaries about how they brought civilization to India or something.

Source, or is that just some generalised opinion based on simplistic historical foreign parody?

Anecdotal, but many do hold that view.

Similarly anecdotal, whilst in India met many Indians who held the same view.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#207

Post by vixen99 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

mangecoeur wrote: post #147

derrickdirge wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> global destiny Does this mean what it sounds like it means?

People in the UK haven't quite gotten over that whole global empire thing. Every now and then they make documentaries about how they brought civilization to India or something.

Empires were certainly established for the benefit of the empire builder but India also gained in many ways via British social reform - abolition of Sati (burning to death of widows) and child marriage for instance, construction of the railway system, roads, canals, mines, sewers, plantations and the establishment of English law and and the idea of democracy.

I haven't checked but if the BBC still make documentaries on colonization by the British they almost certainly focus on its undoubted sins along with corruption within the East India Company.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#208

Post by whositis » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

donmatito wrote: post #121

whositis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. And that's precisely why it is failing, and will continue to fail. Imagine combining Canada and the USA into a single country.

>Imagine combining Canada and the USA into a single country. this is not very hard to imagine

You don't think maybe some Canadians would be against that idea?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#209

Post by raesene6 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

gpderetta wrote: post #197

raesene6 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest that a large percentage of that 52% voted based on "control the borders" rhetoric. That (AFAIK) cannot be delivered while remaining in the single market, so the UK government is taking the only possible path to satisfy that requirement which was voted for by the UK population in a referendum... Now I'd agree that if you actually spelled out the reality of "hard brexit" people might be given pause and…

> I would suggest that a large percentage of that 52% voted based on "control the borders" rhetoric. are you suggesting that (as long as that percentage is less than 95%) the majority of total voters were against 'border control?'

no as should be clear I'm suggesting that the government is implementing one of the key elements of the leave campaign, which the UK voted in favour of. To deliver that, the UK has to leave the single market.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#210

Post by kamjam » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #93

lwhi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused why my comment has been downvoted. Theresa May was not voted into government. Only 52% of (72.2%) of the population voted for Brexit. Quite a disappointing response.

The point is there WAS a vote. A democratic vote. I'm looking at it from the outside and don't care either way - except that the way some very vocal ones of the so-called "remainers" dislike democracy and voting as soon as they don't get what they want disgusts me. Remember your attitude when some day - inevitably - it will be the other way around, you won a vote and the other side comes up with the same arguments.

Maybe you've misunderstood how democracy works with a dictatorship. Just because your "side" lost the vote does not mean you cave in and blindly follow down a blind alley.

By your reasoning, the other opposition parties (Labour, Liberal Democrats et al) should just sit idly by and not question or argue against any Tory policies for that term of Government?

I agree with you that the vote has been cast, the UK is leaving the EU. But to state people are not allowed to have a voice on the terms of leaving is naive at best. Had the result of the vote been the other way (48% leave, 52% remain) would be be having a "hard remain" and telling the leavers to shut up?