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Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

bbc.com

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Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#81

Post by [deleted] »

andriesm wrote: post #37
donmatito wrote: post #14

This is such a pity. European Union is (was ?) an incredible achievement. I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. I hope the best for Europe and UK on their separate path. Given the mess, a clean cut is probably in the best interest of both sides

A clean cut is certainly in both sides best interest, and the UK is clear they want that, but EU is not so clear about it, because they depend on implied threats to keep some of the other members from leaving too. Free trade is fantastic, but a unified monatory policy is a disaster - it cannot work- not even on paper.

[deleted]

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#82

Post by whositis »

rwmj wrote: post #44
andriesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clean cut is certainly in both sides best interest, and the UK is clear they want that, but EU is not so clear about it, because they depend on implied threats to keep some of the other members from leaving too. Free trade is fantastic, but a unified monatory policy is a disaster - it cannot work- not even on paper.

Don't confuse the EU and the Euro.

They are intrinsically linked. The Euro is another tool to get to the endgame - a United States of Europe, controlled and dominated by Germany.

The EU was never about trade. It's about power, control and globalization. Removing democracy from the peoples of Europe.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#83

Post by mathw »

derrickdirge wrote: post #56
harryf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

> global destiny Does this mean what it sounds like it means?

Yes, and it's something the Brexit crowd are relying upon in their visions of our prosperity after leaving the EU.

I happen to think it's a load of hogwash, but I really don't want to see them proven wrong because I'll still have to live through it.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#84

Post by mathw »

blibble wrote: post #45
mfukar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, are you doubting the existence of a single market for EU members? Because if you are, reality is very persuasive.

there is certainly a single market for goods, services is far from complete it makes the statement "four freedoms are indivisible" somewhat hollow, because there has never been full freedom of services

Not yet, anyway. There's still a lot of talk about it. I'm particularly interested in the ongoing talk about a single market for digital goods.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#85

Post by charlesdm »

BjoernKW wrote: post #58
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

Nice words and I agree with the message. The implementation however is often still deeply flawed. Quite often it's nothing but some aloof bureaucrat's plan (or shall I say pipe dream?). A prime example of this is VAT regulations in the EU, which supposedly have been harmonised and simplified some time ago yet with every iteration, with every 'simplification' they just got worse, less harmonious and more unwieldy to h…

The problem is, you can't harmonise VAT without harmonising the tax bases. And if you don't harmonise the tax bases, companies will try to set up mechanisms to avoid tax.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#86

Post by Graham24 »

donmatito wrote: post #25

Unrelated to the topic, I like how BBC splits clearly reporting of facts and analysis/opinion section.

I like how it's so much clearer and easier to read than, say, the NYT's website with its horrible plain black and white tiny font. Is there a reason why it looks (IMO) so bad?

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#87

Post by coldtea »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #43
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a pity. European Union is (was ?) an incredible achievement. I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. Only we never done that. We just allowed for easy border access, united a few laws, and had central bureaucrats and heavier countries step on the throats of lesser ones.

Except that's absolutely incorrect and repeating these things won't make it any more true.

That's hardly an argument. Sounds more like 'lalala' hands in the ears denial. Germany has been pushing peripheral countries around and controlling central aspects of European policy for decades, even bullying France into compliance.

And, of course, containing Germany, which brought war upon Europe twice in the 20th century, was a stated goal of the 1950s European politicians and diplomats that designed EU and its early precursors (E.g. "The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany.").

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#88

Post by kuschku »

paskster wrote: post #71

Europe is not a single market at all. Simple thinks like making sure your invoice is paid from a customer who is based in another european country is practically impossible. I know because I am the CEO of a staffing company in Germany: national as well as international businesses book exhibition staff and other temporary employees for events in Germany and Austria through our platform. If one of our german customers…

> Europe is not a single market at all.

Oh, it’s already a lot better than it was before. But you are right, a fuckton of work is required to make it even slightly competitive with the US, China, or India.

But we should work towards that – and not split it up even further.

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#89

Post by [deleted] »

harryf wrote: post #38
emptyfile wrote: post #5

"It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer. Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than…

"I want my money back!" Margret Thatcher at the European Union summit in Dublin in 1980 "That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European superstate was ever embarked upon will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era. And that Britain, with her traditional strengths and global destiny, should ever have been part of it will appear a political error of historic magn…

[deleted]

Re: Theresa May: UK must leave European single market

#90

Post by jcbeard »

chii wrote: post #29
donmatito wrote: post #14

This is such a pity. European Union is (was ?) an incredible achievement. I don't think we realize exactly how improbable uniting Europe around a common destiny and a shared set of values is. I hope the best for Europe and UK on their separate path. Given the mess, a clean cut is probably in the best interest of both sides

> a shared set of values is. except they never had this - the richer countries see their contribution as a drain (e.g., the almost collapse for the greeks), unlike the american state, which distributes the federal taxes somewhat more "evently", and there's no "Us vs Them" mentality.

I'm not sure that is quite correct ( http://www.businessinsider.com/the-states-the-most-and-least... , http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/03/27/which-states-take-... ) are just a few of many references that show where the tax dollars are distributed in the United States. Here, states that tend to be more fortunate/productive subsidize the other ones (note: most of the charts specify return on their own tax dollars, and are likely sourced from same data). This has come up in several recent elections, blogs, etc. Not to the point of the EU debates, however it is definitely a source of animosity to some. I don't have data to back up why each state is the way it is (a very complex web to unravel). We can speculate all we want (I'd rather not since political ideology invariably trumps factual discourse, pun intended)...however, if somebody has a definitive answer, they should definitely write a paper :).
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