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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#171

Post by aninhumer »

grzm wrote: post #139
aninhumer wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Likely you understand the distinction your parent intends as well In principle, yes. I can imagine there are different chemicals used for farming, and that some of them may cause more harm to consumers of the produce than others. But in terms of specifics, no. I have very little idea what distinctions are being made when people refer to "chemical food" or similar, because objection to it tends towards these vague em…

because objection to it tends towards these vague emotive terms, rather than highlighting specifics. You're not 'geon, so this may not apply to you, but if this is the case, a purely pedantic comment is very unlikely to do anything constructive to move the conversation forward. It's not going to encourage reflection (as they're vague and emotive). The goal is civil and substantive discussion. You might sincerely spec…

>but if this is the case, a purely pedantic comment is very unlikely to do anything constructive to move the conversation forward.

Because the intent of the comment was not to further that particular conversation, but instead to critique your rhetoric.

It was not simply a pedantic comment saying "actually you're wrong because water is a chemical" it was a suggestion to use a different term.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#172

Post by bryanlarsen »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #165
bryanlarsen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticisms of conventional farming are valid, but that doesn't mean that organic farming is any better. I believe that organic farming is much more likely to cause soil degradation and environmental harm than conventional farming for several different reasons: - organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage, which causes immense amounts of damage to the soil directly and allowing the soil to…

>Conventional farmers care far more about the value of their land than organic farmers do. [...] // You're going to need some pretty amazing sources to convince me that Organic farmers in general care less about sustainable farming than those practising more conventional techniques. This sort of unsupported claim makes anything else you're saying lack credence IMO.

I didn't say they cared less about sustainable farming, I said they cared less about the value of their land. Value, as in number of dollars the land can be sold for.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#173

Post by specialist »

riprowan wrote: post #166
specialist wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is such a thing as sustainable ranching..." Give two examples (in the USA).

I don't understand the question. Can you help me understand why the idea that raising animals cannot be sustainable, when clearly grazing animals can live perfectly well on their own with no care whatsoever from humans (as they have for millennia) on areas of land that are not suitable for farming? I think the direct answer to your question is that clearly carnivorism is environmentally sustainable, as it has been pr…

Name two examples of sustainable ranching. In the USA.

If it's hypothetically possible, surely someone somewhere is doing it.

What I like to call an existence proof.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#175

Post by ddebernardy »

krzyk wrote: post #116
throwaway1892 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming lobby in Europe For my perspective in France, here the farming lobby is inexistant/inefficient, since farmers had to big pretty big actions all over France just to raise the price of milk. So I think it's not the farming lobby, but the fertilizers and pesticides lobby.

French farmers are the biggest group of farmers that is subsidized by EU. For me it is the source of everything what's wrong with farming in EU. Because of subsidies they produce crops that are not developed in efficient way (because they will receive subsidy either way). Because of them e.g. Polish farmers are forced to produce less milk than they have ability to - milk producers are given fines if they create to mu…

Just to add to the other answer, which stresses that French farmers are just as productive, the reason EU farmers and their US farmer counterparts get subsidies is geostrategic: if for some reason you end up at war with your food partners, the last thing you want is a starving population. If, overnight, farmers need to start producing twice as much, you want to make sure that it's a possibility.

(And yes, it's also soft power when dealing with developing countries.)

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#176

Post by roel_v »

rini17 wrote: post #155
roel_v wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those home food gardening systems aren't sustainable, if you're implying that. They very often use artificial fertilizers (and in wrong dosages ,too - hey if one gram is great, 2 grams must be better, right?) They are often based on tilling and/or small monocultures with maybe a basic crop rotation system, etc. Sure, they have beneficial aspects that traditional farms don't have, but home-scale subsistence farming is…

I can't even. Of course they are sustainable without artificial fertilizers, if compost and animal manure (nothing big necessary, just chicken and rabbits) is used. Of course, you can use fertilizers and stuff in unsustainable way, too, but what does that prove or disprove?

Well it depends on what you call 'sustainable'. I use a pretty common definition, roughly 'can in this way, without using non-renewable, external energy sources, a population be fed'. If I'm reading you correctly, you're using a definition of 'can this particular plot be sustained as a home garden without external inputs'; well yes, it probably (maybe) can. What my definition adds is 'can the whole population be fed this way'; and no, home-scale agriculture can't do that, in the aggregate (maybe in one village, or a rural(ish) part of a developing country somewhere; I don't care for specific case studies, I'm talking about the aggregate).

If some people can feed themselves off their own land, while relying on (many) others in the rest of society to produce stuff and infrastructure etc. who need large-scale agriculture to sustain themselves, I argue that those few aren't being 'sustainable' - just ignorant of their reliance on infrastructure provided by others who produce more efficiently.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#177

Post by ansible »

cmdrfred wrote: post #79
ansible wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop And pesticides are also bad for other insects that don't eat the crops, and are necessary for our ecosystem to function. And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too.

>And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too. Can you source that claim?

I'm surprised I need to. Here's one I found in ten seconds of searching.

http://extension.psu.edu/pests/pesticide-education/applicato...

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#178

Post by bryanlarsen »

Angostura wrote: post #162
bryanlarsen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticisms of conventional farming are valid, but that doesn't mean that organic farming is any better. I believe that organic farming is much more likely to cause soil degradation and environmental harm than conventional farming for several different reasons: - organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage, which causes immense amounts of damage to the soil directly and allowing the soil to…

> organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage No - mulching, no and no til are very common > For example, some organic farmers literally salt their soil Certainly in the UK you wouldn't get organic certification for doing that. The certified pesticides over here are genderally safer for the environment, if more labour intensive. > Conventional farmers care far more about the value of their lan…

"Really no. Conventional farmers can quickly boost the fertility of their soil by adding some quick-fix nutrients."

Maybe in the UK, but definitely not here in Saskatchewan. Once soil has been destroyed through tillage, it takes a good decade of rehabilitation to make the soil viable again. Lost organic matter can't be replaced with a chemical fertilizer.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#179

Post by loup-vaillant »

roel_v wrote: post #114
loup-vaillant wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how we define "organic". If it can include pesticides, that's a bit depressing. There's a way to avoid pesticides altogether: grow local apples that thrive in the local environment. Some will get eaten by worms, some will rot… Select them out. You don't always need those pesticides.

Look, pesticides are a cost. If there was a way that was as easy as you make it out to be, farmers would already do it, because the market would force them to. This whole discussion is about the fact that it isn't as simple as saying 'just grow local'. People do that already and those apples cost 2-3 times what they cost in the supermarket (apart from a few weeks in september when they are 1/2 of supermarket prices b…

> because the market would force them to.

The market here is heavily influenced by government policies. Both American and European farmers have subsidies that apply if they grow their food in a certain way. Organic food in particular tend to have less subsidies. I suggest we manipulate the market differently. Or less. I don't know.

> The question is now: how do we scale this up,

That's the hard part. Going organic/permaculture/what have you needs a transition period. Reviving a dead soil takes 3 years, during which you don't do much —if at all. After that, you still need 12 years before the chemical residues disperse enough for your food to really count as "organic". And hardest of all, even if we manage to have the same or better yields per unit of surface (which I fully believe is possible), those new methods are likely to require more labour. We need more farmers, and we need them soon.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#180

Post by SixSigma »

vanderZwan wrote: post #120
ThePhysicist wrote: post #5

The thing with conventional farming is that a lot of the costs (in terms of environmental damage which needs to be repaired) are currently externalized, i.e. payed for by the society, which indeed makes industrial farming more cost-effective than organic farming, at least for the farmer (though in many countries you can charge a good premium for organic food, which will often outweigh your additional cost). The same…

> The real problem is properly accounting for all costs incurred by a given farming technique, which is difficult as the farming lobby seems to be one of the most effective ones in the world (at least judging from a European perspective). I think this a good moment to side-track a bit into agricultural history. While I'm generally not a fan of Great Man history, Sicco Mansholt seems to be a very interesting focal poi…

Ah, so that's the Thomas Midgley Jr. of agriculture.

The CAP has turned into a disaster for the environment and for the EU. Perverse incentives abound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr

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