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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#131

Post by roel_v »

justJanne wrote: post #107
roel_v wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no. While there is variability in ground- and surface water pollution across Europe, and safe levels are exceeded in some places, the overall trend is stable. See pretty much all reporting on this by e.g. the EEA, Eurostat, DG Agri/Env, etc. First, one can say that these 'official' bodies are just in the pocket of 'big Ag' and can't be trusted etc. - it's a common trope, but there is no proof and also (alth…

No? http://www.kn-online.de/News/Aktuelle-Politik-Nachrichten/Na... This is not happening? The EU is suing Germany in front of the ECJ because Germany is far above the levels. The EU Commission is literally suing Germany because our drinking water is exceeding the limits, and you say it’s not happening? This http://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-germany-over-water-tainted-by-n... isn’t happening? > EU sues Germany over water…

You're focusing on just one event (the Commission suing Germany), an event that in the grand scheme is pretty insignificant; what I'm talking about is the overall trend. I never denied this enforcement action is happening, it would be pretty silly to do so. The GP claimed that water quality levels are declining (rapidly) and that some sort of enormous change in agricultural practices is needed to stop, let alone revert that (at least, that seems to be his claim; it's a bit unclear, upon rereading, whether he meant it narrowly for just those parts of Germany and what would be required to get within the limits of the Directive). That claim is not true.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#132

Post by knutin »

The big issue with agriculture, both organic and conventional, is what we farm. According to who? The World Bank, the EU and the UN: http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM

The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution and loss of biodiversity.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#133

Post by latch »

riprowan wrote: post #97
latch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reducing the consumption of meat seems like a step in the right direction. It's a huge drain on water, land, energy and calories. At the very least, people should be paying for the real cost. Taking it further, instead of subsidizing these industries, I wouldn't mind seeing a beef-tax.

I think you overgeneralize industrial meat production to all forms of ranching. There are huge areas of the USA that are not amenable to farming but which can be ranched. Raising cattle on these lands does not necessarily consume any water, food, or arable land that would be productively used otherwise. This form of ranching serves many purposes, one of which is to simulate the effect of millions of grazing animals r…

I think you've missed my main point: reduced consumption is an increase in sustainability [1]. And it's not clear to me that grass-fed beef is sustainable [2] (especially not at the current scale of consumption [3])

Farmers are critical, underpaid, and deal with a lot of risk. There must be some insurance. But consumers should pay the real price for their goods at the counter.

1 - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/07/tax-meat...

2 - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/opinion/the-myth-of-sustai...

3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_cons...

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#134

Post by paganel »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #117
ThePhysicist wrote: post #5

The thing with conventional farming is that a lot of the costs (in terms of environmental damage which needs to be repaired) are currently externalized, i.e. payed for by the society, which indeed makes industrial farming more cost-effective than organic farming, at least for the farmer (though in many countries you can charge a good premium for organic food, which will often outweigh your additional cost). The same…

The criticisms of conventional farming are valid, but that doesn't mean that organic farming is any better. I believe that organic farming is much more likely to cause soil degradation and environmental harm than conventional farming for several different reasons: - organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage, which causes immense amounts of damage to the soil directly and allowing the soil to…

> It was tillage that turned the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia into the deserts of Iraq.

Any sources on that? Or on the bad effects of tillage, generally speaking. I'm just curious as my parents are traditional farmers and they use shoveling and the like instead of pesticides (which they couldn't afford, anyway).

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#135

Post by 7sigma »

ansible wrote: post #73
7sigma wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's because they're optimised to withstand heavy pesticide use" Actually, GMOs need less pesticides than non GMO crop. Some of them produce their own pesticide (BT corn and BT cotton). "Pesticides are bad." Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop "GMO are generally sterile" You are confusing GMO with hybrids and no they are not sterile, the just lose vigour after a few generations, s…

Thats kind of the point, they are bad to pests that try to eat the crop And pesticides are also bad for other insects that don't eat the crops, and are necessary for our ecosystem to function. And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too.

Well in the case of BT (bacillus thurigensis) cotton and corn, for example, the GM plant produces the Cry toxin which is bad for the insects that eat the crop, so better than spraying it (Also BT is used in organic agriculture via spraying btw).

Herbicides like roundup affect a certain pathway in plants, not humans in animals.

"And pesticides are bad for people and animals in the longer term too."

Not at the concentrations that are used. The amount of residue is minuscule and modern pesticides have far less toxicity than older ones that have been phased out.

IIRC, the BT toxin only affects insects that have an alkaline digestive system. Animals and humans are unaffected as its acidic.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#136

Post by kristopolous »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #92
kristopolous wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy isn't correct. You've made it 1 thing against 1 versus 1 against 3. If we were to use that analogy, a more accurate metric would be either having 1 large centralized kingdom or 100 small, autonomous, independent kingdoms that each have fundamentally different weaknesses. If one fails, you still have 99. But even that fails to understand the dynamic of biological systems. There's mutually beneficial, symb…

My answer was to your "SPoF is an advantage" comment as a general question. Maybe unnecessarily pedantic of me (I need my morning coffee ;)). In context of sustainable ecosystems, I agree with your detailed explanation. Controlling and maintaining a complex system of feedback loops (that we still don't completely understand) is a very difficult task though, so I'm not surprised that currently the most crude methods (…

Ecoinformatics and Computational Ecology is what you're looking for.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#137

Post by Ensorceled »

swegg wrote: post #108
XorNot wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also that's a stupid metric: subsistence farming is wildly inefficient and cannot sustain the population of any country today.

Not knowing where your food comes from makes you unable to make an informed choice about what you consume. It is a tragedy.

Being a farmer doesn't mean you understand global food markets. Not knowing how to properly hill potatoes doesn't mean you can't understand global food markets.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#138

Post by neutralid »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #92
kristopolous wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy isn't correct. You've made it 1 thing against 1 versus 1 against 3. If we were to use that analogy, a more accurate metric would be either having 1 large centralized kingdom or 100 small, autonomous, independent kingdoms that each have fundamentally different weaknesses. If one fails, you still have 99. But even that fails to understand the dynamic of biological systems. There's mutually beneficial, symb…

My answer was to your "SPoF is an advantage" comment as a general question. Maybe unnecessarily pedantic of me (I need my morning coffee ;)). In context of sustainable ecosystems, I agree with your detailed explanation. Controlling and maintaining a complex system of feedback loops (that we still don't completely understand) is a very difficult task though, so I'm not surprised that currently the most crude methods (…

> Controlling and maintaining a complex system of feedback loops (that we still don't completely understand) is a very difficult task though, so I'm not surprised that currently the most crude methods (genocidal chemical warfare) are also the cheapest / most efficient.

Blanket chemical warfare is like feedback linearization. Wasteful in terms of energy and has other flaws associated with stability. There is a better approach, e.g., passivity based control, which requires understanding the underlying nonlinear dynamical system.

Interestingly this has been the same problem in medicine. However, there are more nuanced control-oriented medical techniques being developed (need better observers and actuating mechanisms).

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#139

Post by grzm »

aninhumer wrote: post #125
grzm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point you're trying to make. Likely you understand the distinction your parent intends as well, and this is a commonly understood way to discuss the topic. Do you have a preferred alternative to suggest that conveys the same intent, preferably one that is also widely understood?

>Likely you understand the distinction your parent intends as well In principle, yes. I can imagine there are different chemicals used for farming, and that some of them may cause more harm to consumers of the produce than others. But in terms of specifics, no. I have very little idea what distinctions are being made when people refer to "chemical food" or similar, because objection to it tends towards these vague em…

because objection to it tends towards these vague emotive terms, rather than highlighting specifics.

You're not 'geon, so this may not apply to you, but if this is the case, a purely pedantic comment is very unlikely to do anything constructive to move the conversation forward. It's not going to encourage reflection (as they're vague and emotive). The goal is civil and substantive discussion.

You might sincerely speculate what distinction they're trying to make. Or honestly and civilly ask for clarification. If you don't think they're reasonable, do you think they're likely to be swayed by anything you consider reasonable? I think it's better to refrain from commenting if it's not going to move the discussion forward. On topics like this, the ground is well-worn. It doesn't need to be rehashed if people aren't actually listening to each other. At least not on HN.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#140

Post by kuschku »

roel_v wrote: post #131
justJanne wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? http://www.kn-online.de/News/Aktuelle-Politik-Nachrichten/Na... This is not happening? The EU is suing Germany in front of the ECJ because Germany is far above the levels. The EU Commission is literally suing Germany because our drinking water is exceeding the limits, and you say it’s not happening? This http://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-germany-over-water-tainted-by-n... isn’t happening? > EU sues Germany over water…

You're focusing on just one event (the Commission suing Germany), an event that in the grand scheme is pretty insignificant; what I'm talking about is the overall trend. I never denied this enforcement action is happening, it would be pretty silly to do so. The GP claimed that water quality levels are declining (rapidly) and that some sort of enormous change in agricultural practices is needed to stop, let alone reve…

> The GP claimed that water quality levels are declining (rapidly) and that some sort of enormous change in agricultural practices is needed to stop, let alone revert that (at least, that seems to be his claim; it's a bit unclear, upon rereading, whether he meant it narrowly for just those parts of Germany and what would be required to get within the limits of the Directive).

I can only speak for my state (Schleswig-Holstein), but the government has been saying this for years, that major agricultural change is necessary.

Our overall trend has been massively down, and it’s similar in many other parts of Germany.

So, even then, it’s still the Ministry of the Environment and Agriculture vs. you.

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