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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#101

Post by D_Alex »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #75

You want organic and efficient? How about hermetically sealed "vertical" robot-operated farms in skyscrapers? No pests, so no pesticides.

You would not believe how hard the "no pests" thing is in real life. It only takes a few insect eggs to start an infestation. It is hard enough to do that on a "sack of grain" scale, let alone on industrial farm scale.

Only way AFAIK that pest infestation are successfully forestalled in large food storages are through refrigeration or inert or even toxic atmospheres. Both of these will not work if you are actually trying to produce food.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#102

Post by TimonKnigge »

jankotek wrote: post #64
kuschku wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is a huge unspoken problem yet. In many areas of northern Germany, even with the extremely strict limits on fertilizer and pesticides that Germany has, the drinking water, rivers and oceans are getting so massively polluted that we’re seeing massive algae blooms and drinking water slowly becoming undrinkable. It’s a massive problem, and there’s no way to solve these without massively reducing fertilizer and…

When joining EU, Czech Republic had to raise 5x nitrate limits in drinking water. Mainly for pollution in germany. Now water for toddlers is not safe for some aquarium fish.

Sorry, but do you have a source for this? The EU only sets a maximum level (50 mg/l apparently [1]), but member states are free to set lower maximums.

[1] http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/nitrate-in...

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#103

Post by D_Alex »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #53
kristopolous wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single point of failure is an advantage?

Yes? As a king, what would you prefer - to defend against one big kingdom that wants all of your land, or to defend against three big kingdoms that each want a third of your land? When number of points of failure trade off against your attack surface, you can't just say "more PoFs is better".

The problem with monoculture is the you have a potential for a complete and utter failure. Ant it is not really "single-point", there are numerous mechanisms by which crops will fail.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#104

Post by [deleted] »

roel_v wrote: post #77
kuschku wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is a huge unspoken problem yet. In many areas of northern Germany, even with the extremely strict limits on fertilizer and pesticides that Germany has, the drinking water, rivers and oceans are getting so massively polluted that we’re seeing massive algae blooms and drinking water slowly becoming undrinkable. It’s a massive problem, and there’s no way to solve these without massively reducing fertilizer and…

Actually, no. While there is variability in ground- and surface water pollution across Europe, and safe levels are exceeded in some places, the overall trend is stable. See pretty much all reporting on this by e.g. the EEA, Eurostat, DG Agri/Env, etc. First, one can say that these 'official' bodies are just in the pocket of 'big Ag' and can't be trusted etc. - it's a common trope, but there is no proof and also (alth…

[deleted]

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#105

Post by jeromenerf »

jaimebuelta wrote: post #18

We first should get a good definition of what "organic food" is, as currently (at least in Europe) is, more or less, equivalent to "crops grow using tradicional methods". The "tradicional methods" is very vague, but gets described in some laws. That's the main reason why is less efficient, is not using the latest improvements. "Organic food" is also an incredibly silly name, as there are no "inorganic food", but what…

There are very little guarantees in the "conventional farming" either and I find it more disturbing.

"Organic farming" doesn't mean a lot since there is no clear agreement on the definition. However, considering it should use less and safer inputs, why should it provide more guarantees than "conventional farming"?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#106

Post by Dove »

thinkloop wrote: post #50

> we should be TERRIFIED that fewer than 1 in 100 Americans actually knows how to grow enough food to feed a family or more Am I the only one that found this to be high, and comforting? I looked up how many software engineers there are in the US, it's also around 1% (3.6m) [1] About 0.5% of us are lawyers [2] Double-checking the farmers stat, it seems there are 2.1m farms [3], each must be manned by at least several…

Yeah, I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to be terrified by that. Yeah, man, civilization and specialization. Sounds like progress to me. What's the concern? A Lucifer's Hammer style apocalypse? Failure of society at large to adequately meddle in the affairs of farmers?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#107

Post by justJanne »

roel_v wrote: post #77
kuschku wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is a huge unspoken problem yet. In many areas of northern Germany, even with the extremely strict limits on fertilizer and pesticides that Germany has, the drinking water, rivers and oceans are getting so massively polluted that we’re seeing massive algae blooms and drinking water slowly becoming undrinkable. It’s a massive problem, and there’s no way to solve these without massively reducing fertilizer and…

Actually, no. While there is variability in ground- and surface water pollution across Europe, and safe levels are exceeded in some places, the overall trend is stable. See pretty much all reporting on this by e.g. the EEA, Eurostat, DG Agri/Env, etc. First, one can say that these 'official' bodies are just in the pocket of 'big Ag' and can't be trusted etc. - it's a common trope, but there is no proof and also (alth…

No?

http://www.kn-online.de/News/Aktuelle-Politik-Nachrichten/Na...

This is not happening?

The EU is suing Germany in front of the ECJ because Germany is far above the levels.

The EU Commission is literally suing Germany because our drinking water is exceeding the limits, and you say it’s not happening?

This http://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-germany-over-water-tainted-by-n... isn’t happening?

> EU sues Germany over water tainted by nitrate fertilizer

> The European Commission has lost patience with Germany over the high concentration of nitrate fertilizer in its ground water. Taxpayers could now end up paying hundreds of millions of euros in fines.

This? https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/eu-ta...

This? https://www.thelocal.de/20161107/eu-sues-germany-over-water-...

This? http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1453_en.htm

Every news outlet is reporting on this, and you’re saying it isn’t happening? We truly live in postfactual times.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#108

Post by swegg »

XorNot wrote: post #83
thinkloop wrote: post #50

> we should be TERRIFIED that fewer than 1 in 100 Americans actually knows how to grow enough food to feed a family or more Am I the only one that found this to be high, and comforting? I looked up how many software engineers there are in the US, it's also around 1% (3.6m) [1] About 0.5% of us are lawyers [2] Double-checking the farmers stat, it seems there are 2.1m farms [3], each must be manned by at least several…

Also that's a stupid metric: subsistence farming is wildly inefficient and cannot sustain the population of any country today.

Not knowing where your food comes from makes you unable to make an informed choice about what you consume. It is a tragedy.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#109

Post by roel_v »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #75

You want organic and efficient? How about hermetically sealed "vertical" robot-operated farms in skyscrapers? No pests, so no pesticides.

The whole question is whether, when you include the energy inputs such a system require, it's more efficient. The jury's still out. Many people don't consider food grown in substrates with 'artificial' (concentrated) nutrients to not be 'organic'. I don't personally care about labels so much, but my point is that it's not clear at this point which direction is a) viable, in the long term and b) the 'best' (or rather, we don't even know what our optimum function looks like, let alone that we know what system is best)

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#110

Post by dx034 »

thinkloop wrote: post #50

> we should be TERRIFIED that fewer than 1 in 100 Americans actually knows how to grow enough food to feed a family or more Am I the only one that found this to be high, and comforting? I looked up how many software engineers there are in the US, it's also around 1% (3.6m) [1] About 0.5% of us are lawyers [2] Double-checking the farmers stat, it seems there are 2.1m farms [3], each must be manned by at least several…

In addition to that, it's rather easy to learn how to feed a family, if your goal is not to be cost efficient or have a very balanced diet. I guess most people could learn rather quickly how to grow enough potatoes to feed several people. You won't reach the same yield as a professional farmer, but if you had to, you could probably survive without extensive training (if you have the seed to start with).
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