China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network • Hacker News Board

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#161

Post by ajmurmann » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #152

xbeta wrote: post #135

(Being a Chinese grew up in Canada, and now working/living in the Bay) In my opinion, most people in the valley or in North America still refuse to give up their lifestyle. They look for something like self-driving cars, all electric-powered "personal" vehicle to invest. And those still drive on the same road/interstates/highway infrastructure and don't give you the benefits compare with high-speed rails. They don't…

Many people do indeed want to get from Point A to point B quickly. That's why there are around 75,000 plane flights per day. There are very few city pairs in the US with the potential volume to justify high speed rail. There already is high speed-ish rail travel in the Northeast and it's very popular. But, for example, even if you could magically offer 6-8 hour train service between New York and Chicago, relatively f…

I think your point is generally valid for the US. However, Chicago-NYC might be a bad example, since it actuality might be viable. The Shinkansen goes ~200mp/h and thus would be able to go back and forth in 4-5hrs. Given that trains are less weather dependent, can drop you off on there middle of the city rather than the outskirts and don't come with the same security theater you probably come out with a comparable time frame and more reliability on that connection. Things like connecting the west coast to anything but itself are completely unviable though because of the reasons you gave.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#162

Post by ghaff » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #161

ghaff wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people do indeed want to get from Point A to point B quickly. That's why there are around 75,000 plane flights per day. There are very few city pairs in the US with the potential volume to justify high speed rail. There already is high speed-ish rail travel in the Northeast and it's very popular. But, for example, even if you could magically offer 6-8 hour train service between New York and Chicago, relatively f…

I think your point is generally valid for the US. However, Chicago-NYC might be a bad example, since it actuality might be viable. The Shinkansen goes ~200mp/h and thus would be able to go back and forth in 4-5hrs. Given that trains are less weather dependent, can drop you off on there middle of the city rather than the outskirts and don't come with the same security theater you probably come out with a comparable ti…

NYC to Chicago goes through a (smaller) continental divide though (the Appalachians) [ADDED in what's also a pretty built-up area of the country]. So HSR is problematic on that route. It's about a 20 hour trip today so cutting that by 2/3rds would be a significant achievement but probably still wouldn't be enough to make it interesting.

The somewhat controversial LA to San Francisco route through the Central Valley may make sense. We'll see in 15 or 20 years or whatever. Unfortunately LA is pretty spread out so you don't get the same downtown to downtown advantages that trains in the Northeast have.

The route that probably would have the biggest potential benefit is speeding up the Northeast Corridor to the point where Boston to DC was more practical vs. flying. Amtrak is apparently doing some upgrades but decided that the most aggressive improvements weren't cost-justified.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#163

Post by gred » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

bainsfather wrote: post #2

"Less than a decade ago China had yet to connect any of its cities by bullet train. Today, it has 20,000km (12,500 miles) of high-speed rail lines, more than the rest of the world combined. It is planning to lay another 15,000km by 2025" The contrast to the UK, where we might someday build the HS2 line London-Birmingham-Manchester, is massive. I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at…

> I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at the UK's stagnancy.

To be fair, the UK was overspending on railway long before it was cool :-)

From Edward Chancellor's "Devil Take the Hindmost" [1]:

> In January 1845, sixteen new railway schemes were projected. By April, with rail receipts continuing to grow rapidly, over fifty new companies had been registered...

> By June 1845, plans for over eight thousand miles of new railway -- four times the size of the existing railway system and nearly twenty times the length of England -- were under consideration by the Board of Trade. In the following month, new schemes appeared at the rate of over a dozen a week.

> At the end of October [...] over twelve hundred railways were being projected at an estimated cost of over £560 million. The total amount of outstanding railway liabilities was nearly £600 million. This figure exceeded the national income, estimated at around £550 million, of which perhaps £20 million a year could be spent safely on the railways without starving the rest of the economy of capital.

> In Britain, [...] the spirit of laissez-faire dictated that the development of the railways should be left entirely to private enterprise. The uncontrolled expansion of the railway system, in the hands of semi-criminal entrepreneurs, produced a haphazard network. For instance, by the 1850s there were three independent routes from Liverpool to Leeds and three alternative routes from London to Peterborough.

> The results of the mania, however, were not entirely negative. With over 8,000 miles of track in operation by 1855, Britain possessed the highest density of railways in the world, seven times greater than that of France or Germany.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Devil-Take-Hindmost-Financial-Specula...

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#164

Post by ajmurmann » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

brohee wrote: post #102

I love how the Economist map misses a 50M people municipality (Chongqing). Shows how little the world knows about China...

Having been there I think it's hugely inflated. Chongqing isn't really a giant city but a large city with a huge rural area around it that has been declared to be part of the city now. Not sure why that even happened. Maybe so that it can become a special trade zone without much political work?

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#165

Post by djhworld » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:46 PM UTC

nialv7 wrote: post #155

ytruytr wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the political pushback in the US is two major factors: 1) Rail systems are almost never profitable. The US, at least in spirit, doesn't like government subsidies. An investment in high speed rail entails paying taxes for it for many years or perhaps forever. 2) The US is much more rural than other developed countries. The land area compared to the population is huge compared to Europe/China/Japan. You almost…

If you've been to Tokyo or Shanghai/Beijing, you would know the New York public transport system is not well developed at all.

The Shanghai metro, while pleasant to travel on and incredibly cheap, closes at 11pm.

At least the NY subway is 24/7

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#166

Post by _jgdh » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:48 PM UTC

joering2 wrote: post #156

_jgdh wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This looks great but I honestly wonder - if China is under heavy communism oppression and noone can make enough fuzz about their lifestyle before eventually disappearing... why would Chinese government care about spending money and time building such vast (and beautiful!) network? Serious question... China isn't under heavy communist oppression, not the kind that you're thinking. Their style of oppression is differ…

+1 - but: > The Social Contract that the Party offers the People is this - you will not get political choice then > Projects such as high speed rail help the Party deliver on its promise. Ain't that contradiction? Why do they need to deliver on that promise? In other words -- if they don't, what will happen, if as you say "you will not get political choice, you will always be ruled by us". Further you describe China…

> if they don't [deliver on their promise], what will happen

Revolution, Tiananmen Square style.

> you describe China like some sort of wonderland

Do I? China is rich, will continue to grow richer but it is hardly a wonderland. In fact, my last paragraph about subtle and overt social control should have made it clear that it is far from a wonderland.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#167

Post by bjourne » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:48 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #141

xbeta wrote: post #135

(Being a Chinese grew up in Canada, and now working/living in the Bay) In my opinion, most people in the valley or in North America still refuse to give up their lifestyle. They look for something like self-driving cars, all electric-powered "personal" vehicle to invest. And those still drive on the same road/interstates/highway infrastructure and don't give you the benefits compare with high-speed rails. They don't…

The US is in fact ascendant, not in decline. You're using the rail example to imply downfall, and yet the US economy has embarrassed the Japanese economy the last 25 years. In the mid 1980s, the US and Japan nearly had the same GDP per capita; very soon the US will have twice the GDP per capita of Japan. You're implying rail is so beneficial to economic growth, and let's say I agree with that: and yet the US has been…

Yes, but I'd rather pick free health care and five weeks vacation. :) Your numbers are correct, but I don't think they are meaningful.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#168

Post by ascotan » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

jarboot wrote: post #67

Currently in China and frequently using the train system here. I really wish something like this could happen in a country as big as the US. What's stopping them? Politicians? Land rights? Lack of resources?

Because we don't need one? When did a bullet train become a priority for anyone?

Seriously I have to fly 2000 miles soon and I can buy a plane ticket for $200 and be there in 4 hours. Have you checked the cost of a train ticket lately? It's something like 4x the price and 4x slower.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#169

Post by xbeta » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 10:00 PM UTC

ytruytr wrote: post #142

xbeta wrote: post #135

(Being a Chinese grew up in Canada, and now working/living in the Bay) In my opinion, most people in the valley or in North America still refuse to give up their lifestyle. They look for something like self-driving cars, all electric-powered "personal" vehicle to invest. And those still drive on the same road/interstates/highway infrastructure and don't give you the benefits compare with high-speed rails. They don't…

A lot of the political pushback in the US is two major factors: 1) Rail systems are almost never profitable. The US, at least in spirit, doesn't like government subsidies. An investment in high speed rail entails paying taxes for it for many years or perhaps forever. 2) The US is much more rural than other developed countries. The land area compared to the population is huge compared to Europe/China/Japan. You almost…

I do agree completely with your statement on rural area with population. It's a fact that nobody can argue with.

But to think about it more, why do people have to live in such lifestyle with so much open "wasted" spaces?

Why everyone "has a car already"? All we talk about is the American lifestyle which most American still refuse to adapt or look different.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#170

Post by brohee » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 10:02 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #164

brohee wrote: post #102

I love how the Economist map misses a 50M people municipality (Chongqing). Shows how little the world knows about China...

Having been there I think it's hugely inflated. Chongqing isn't really a giant city but a large city with a huge rural area around it that has been declared to be part of the city now. Not sure why that even happened. Maybe so that it can become a special trade zone without much political work?

30M of the 50M people of the municipality are urban, but yes it's more a large conurbation than a city proper.