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China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

economist.com

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Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#131

Post by djsumdog »

kalleboo wrote: post #42
bluedino wrote: post #17

Whenever I hear talk of bullet trains coming to the US, I hear people say things like "Americans could easily build better trains than the Chinese." Then I remind people that they have 20,000km of track, 150 trains and how much operating experience? That's a huge head start.

Even for US high speed rail, I don't think any of those trains will be designed by an American company. From Wikipedia: In February 2015 nine companies formally expressed interest in producing trainsets for the system: Alstom, AnsaldoBreda (now known as Hitachi Rail Italy), Bombardier Transportation, CSR [China South Rail], Hyundai Rotem, Kawasaki Rail Car, Siemens, Sun Group U.S.A. partnered with CNR Tangshan, and T…

Even though they might be foreign companies, they do tend to be built in the US. IIRC Alstom in California made all the cars for the new Florida high speed line that starts running this year.

It takes a while before you can start building rolling stock domestically. Melbourne just started making their class E trams a few years back, which they tout as being "made entirely in Victoria" and yet they've had the largest tram network in the work for decades.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#133

Post by IshKebab »

djsumdog wrote: post #127
Markoff wrote: post #123

as someone who lived better half of decade in China I don't find it that amazing 1. growth of HSR meant less and less slower trains = higher prices of tickets, less available to poorer people 2. prices of these train tickets are actually higher than LCC airways in Europe which will transport me much faster anywhere than HSR 3. buying ticket during peak periods is very difficult 4. train station procedures take probab…

Wait, so you have full security screenings for the high speed rail? (Most of Europe's high speed rail goes through the same train stations and standard commuter rail, so there's no additional screening .. although if you're crossing from Belgium to Germany they do often search trains for marijuana) at border stations.

There's additional screening in Spain too. Though I recall it was a token effort.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#134

Post by Shivetya »

neolefty wrote: post #92
nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically: > The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Si…

undone, maybe not directly but indirectly. it is quite easy to keep on deferring maintenance until a line is not viable. this will be key to determining if this is a successful expenditure. what gets cut first

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#135

Post by xbeta »

(Being a Chinese grew up in Canada, and now working/living in the Bay)

In my opinion, most people in the valley or in North America still refuse to give up their lifestyle. They look for something like self-driving cars, all electric-powered "personal" vehicle to invest. And those still drive on the same road/interstates/highway infrastructure and don't give you the benefits compare with high-speed rails.

They don't recognize the real priorities - how to transport millions people everyday efficiently, cost-effectively, and most environmentally friendlies.

They also don't recognize local economy, local businesses thrive with these connected network. It is proven to be the case in China and Japan.

High-speed rail network is what people want - to get from point A to point B quickly. It's not something even the most efficient self-driving car with the best MPG electric-powered vehicle can scale for millions of people everyday.

Instead of investing into some new technologies, they seem like they refuse to take decades of proven technology and just use it in US (high-speed trains were first invented in Japan in the 60s)

But as I understand very well in the culture here, the politics, the corruption, and the oil/automative conglomerate will never make this happen for the actual good for the people.

I would without a doubt to say the US is in its downfall as it didn't pick the priorities to fix the root of the problem.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#136

Post by leviathant »

neolefty wrote: post #92
nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically: > The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Si…

> But they're built now, and that isn't going to be undone. I hope.

I work in a city where bike commuters have to dodge trolley tracks from electric trolleys that stopped running decades ago. We're converting an old train viaduct into an elevated park, although where that viaduct goes below grade, the construction of a building within the old right-of-way prevents full utilization of what had been old railroad tracks.

In municipalities across America, you can see the scars of old train tracks criss-crossing the landscape, creating curved cuts through square city blocks, turning into hiking trails along rivers, past abandoned ruins of old mills.

With any luck, China's rail system won't suffer the same fate.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#137

Post by walshemj »

aminok wrote: post #43
mseebach wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at the UK's stagnancy. While the UK does feel particularly stagnated on several fronts, I'm not sure abandoning the rule of law, protection of private property, labour protections, at least an attempt at the appearance of corruption-free tenders, high safety standards and the principle that people who are affected should be consulted is worthy…

> I'm not sure abandoning the rule of law, protection of private property, labour protections, at least an attempt at the appearance of corruption-free tenders, high safety standards and the principle that people who are affected should be consulted is worthy of much awe. Two points: 1. The income tax that pays for the UK's lavish welfare system violates private property (and privacy) rights on a massive scale. It ju…

Lavish welfare system lol compared to France or Germany you get bugger all.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#138

Post by avar »

jcranmer wrote: post #121
ak217 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's a high speed track. That's a Siemens ICE train (or a Chinese derivative thereof). A telephoto lens can create this visual effect of depth compression. I'm flabbergasted by people implying that there's a good excuse for why the Western nations can't build HSR the way China does. China has entire lines like this that don't touch the ground for dozens of miles at a time. These lines are out in the country conn…

Elevated track doesn't buy you anything over level track, at least in terms of landowner hostility. What makes you think that an easement for pillars is going to come any cheaper than an easement for continuous level track?

If you browse the image search results for "china high speed rail viaduct" it's obvious that it's a lot less disruptive than laying the track at surface level.

E.g. if it's through the middle of your field you can cross the track at any point, as opposed to going out of your way to get under a tunnel. Most of the land underneath the track can still be farmed, so why wouldn't it be cheaper?

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#139

Post by grw_ »

pjc50 wrote: post #25
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is huge, though, and the UK is not. HS2 is dragging in the UK because it's a massive amount of money to spend in order to shave 45m off a trip to Scotland. The cost/benefit ratio is totally different - and with the Hitachi training they're bringing in, the saving goes further down. HS2 is a large waste of money.

HS2 is not so much about speed as capacity. It does not replace the existing lines, it adds to them. That's why it's been so controversial - it puts railway where there was none. It turns Coventry and Birmingham into London commuter suburbs.

Capacity is only needed for short periods at peak times, which could be achieved by e.g running more standard-class carriages instead of first class. [0]

Since you mentioned Coventry, it's intercity capacity to London will actually be reduced if HS2 comes to be due to extra trains to Birmingham occupying the track. Same for many other towns and cities in the Midlands. [1]

[0] https://beleben.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/friday-capacity-to-... [1] http://stophs2.org/news/13115-13115

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#140

Post by joering2 »

This looks great but I honestly wonder - if China is under heavy communism oppression and noone can make enough fuzz about their lifestyle before eventually disappearing... why would Chinese government care about spending money and time building such vast (and beautiful!) network? Serious question...
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