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China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

economist.com

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Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#81

Post by rsync »

avar wrote: post #37
crdoconnor wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes you do. If the rail goes across any freehold, you'll have to negotiate and compensate for the owners loses. This process takes years if not decades. The only reason China is able to build so quickly is because the government tramples on people rights Actually the Chinese government builds a lot of the high speed rail tracks on elevated tracks in order to avoid interfering with the owner. Which is why most of it…

Perhaps a better photo to make your point: http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0229/c90000-9022441-11.html So it does seem like they're using tracks elevated by concrete pillars pretty widely, but are you sure your image shows a high-speed rail track? To my untrained eye that seems like a really aggressive curve radius for a high speed rail track. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_railway_curve_radius#L...

"Perhaps a better photo to make your point: http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0229/c90000-9022441-11.html"

Neither your or your parents photo represents "elevating the rails to avoid interference with the property below".

What's happening in these photos is that either there is a flood plain below the tracks and/or there is a maximum grade (elevation) change that they need to respect and so they are "flattening" the track with those pillars.

Those pillars are not there to be nice, they're there because of physical constraints.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#82

Post by crdoconnor »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #79
crdoconnor wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure abandoning the rule of law, protection of private property, labour protections All 100% unnecessary in order to build a lot of high speed rail. Except possibly the protection of private property (it would require eminent domain). But, since most British homeowners have been subject to one of the largest handouts in history (in the form of house price appreciation directed by the state), I think the a li…

They don't use stilts because of property ownership, but because of terrain and traffic. There are hardly any stilts between Beijing and GZ, for example, because it is easier to just tunnel under hills rather than do both. I assume the U.K. is rather flat and you wouldn't use stilts at all.

Incorrect.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2014/07/10/co...

"Laying track on viaducts is often preferred in China to minimize resettlement and the use of fertile land"

>There are hardly any stilts between Beijing and GZ

I guess land acquisition costs are lower then.

I've seen a lot of flat farmland in China with CRH stilts in Western China. Beijing-Tianjin line is pretty much all on stilts.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#83

Post by nradov »

tehwalrus wrote: post #39
twelvechairs wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works in the planning and urban design field the real issues are private property and heritage. China doesnt care about either. The UK cares too much. The answer is of course somewhere in the middle. Lets not forget most of the UKs existing infrastructure (including railways, roads, canals) was built on private property and through heritage items too, just in a different environment where this was easi…

I'm always amazed when I see more detail about the UK's canals. They are individually quite small (e.g. when you go for a walk) but the national network is huge . One day when I can take a sabbatical, I'm going to try and navigate from one end of the country to the other on them.

OT, but for a hilarious account of travelling on the UK's canals read "Three Men in a Boat" by Jerome K. Jerome.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/308

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#84

Post by sfifs »

mseebach wrote: post #8
bainsfather wrote: post #2

"Less than a decade ago China had yet to connect any of its cities by bullet train. Today, it has 20,000km (12,500 miles) of high-speed rail lines, more than the rest of the world combined. It is planning to lay another 15,000km by 2025" The contrast to the UK, where we might someday build the HS2 line London-Birmingham-Manchester, is massive. I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at…

> I am left with a feeling of awe at China's development, and frustration at the UK's stagnancy. While the UK does feel particularly stagnated on several fronts, I'm not sure abandoning the rule of law, protection of private property, labour protections, at least an attempt at the appearance of corruption-free tenders, high safety standards and the principle that people who are affected should be consulted is worthy…

first world problems.

China is lifting almost a billion people out of poverty with all these projects. Think back to the West in the early to mid 1900s for the right comparison context.

I only hope China's rise into modernity is not accompanied by mega wars of the type that happened with the Western nations rise.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#85

Post by tuna-piano »

Rezo wrote: post #35

Saw this amazing photo of Chinese high-speed trains just the other day: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-he... Now that's some serious infrastructure investment!

The picture (https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/Wire...)

was taken in Wuhan, China of more than 20 high speed trains.

How many people have even heard of Wuhan before? It has a population of over 10M.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#86

Post by sandworm101 »

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them?

The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account food and lodging). If you need to attend a wedding more than a few hundred km away, you are going to consider flying. But high speed rail networks in many countries (uk, france) are either extreemly expensive or massively subsidized. All i see are suited office workers heading to jobs in downtown cores.

The carbon footprint of high speed rail, while not as bad as air, also remains much higher than other ground options. Speed always comes at some price.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#87

Post by mtw »

sandworm101 wrote: post #86
nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account f…

This is wrong. High speed rail networks in France are profitable. Please do some research

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#88

Post by whyileft »

sandworm101 wrote: post #86
nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account f…

Air transportation is only more affordable for a very small portion of the travelers who get the highly discounted fairs. On aggregate of costs for all travelers air travel is more expensive.

As the other comment stated, please do some research before openly spreading false information. Its very dishonest and in the end leads to great damage for countries.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#89

Post by derefr »

sandworm101 wrote: post #86
nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account f…

This is a similar question to what percentage of people use all those empty condo-cities being built in China. The answer is: a perhaps-negligible number now (except around existing metropolitan centres, where there's respectable usage), but with projected growth toward capacity as GDP rises.

Because Chinese civil-planning policy isn't a matter of election promises, it isn't constrained to showing benefits within four-year periods. A lot of the things China is doing don't "make sense" from an intuitive standpoint if you're imagining anyone expected short-term gains, but do make sense if you imagine they were planning for 10 or 20 years down the line.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#90

Post by [deleted] »

vkou wrote: post #69
wyuenho wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you do. If the rail goes across any freehold, you'll have to negotiate and compensate for the owners loses. This process takes years if not decades. The only reason China is able to build so quickly is because the government tramples on people rights (does private ownership of real estate exist in China?) like there's no tomorrow. I attended a seminar in UCL a few months ago where the panelist shared the number o…

> Yes you do. If the rail goes across any freehold, you'll have to negotiate and compensate for the owners loses. This process takes years if not decades. The only reason China is able to build so quickly is because the government tramples on people rights (does private ownership of real estate exist in China?) like there's no tomorrow. How is this different from, say, oil pipelines in the United States? They are con…

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