Open offices are bad for us • Hacker News Board

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#271

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

mwfunk wrote: post #258

eropple wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you have to block out noise by strapping things to your head for six hours a day is the problem that you are steadfastly not solving, though. You can't get around needing to strap things to your head when you're operating a jackhammer. Nerd at a desk? At the least we should fight for a little dignity.

Agreed, I know that noise-cancelling headphones are a solution to noisy offices for some people, but for me at least it's almost as distracting to have something (anything) strapped to my head for hours on end. And yeah, no one should have to do that in the first place. There is a huge overlap in my experience between people who like open offices because it's easy for them to socialize and ask questions, and people w…

Same thing goes for availability over Slack, HipChat, etc.

"We should all be on the Slack/HipChat channel so we can get instant answers to all of our questions!" - the people who have lots of questions

"Great, all I need, another source of interruptions!" - the people who get asked lots of questions

(Guess which one I consider myself to be?)

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#272

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

chrisbennet wrote: post #113

logfromblammo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once interviewed over a video call. I asked, "I notice you have an open office there. Where do the developers sit in relation to the sales and customer service teams?" They cut the interview short, and I never heard from them again. They know we don't like sitting next to someone yapping on the phone all day. They just don't care .

Bingo. They know it reduces productivity but apparently the productivity hit is worth the cost savings. And frankly, from a business perspective, they could be right. Just don't tell me its "to enhance collaboration" [don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining]. Perhaps I was too harsh, there probably are some businesses that actually don't know that developers are much different from customers support, accountants…

I bet accountants fall on the side of people who like uninterrupted quiet to do their work well.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#273

Post by amag » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #136

a1a wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the main takeaways from the story tho. In an open office those who need silence cannot get it, even if there are private rooms available: "Some of us even feel that escaping to a quiet room is a sign of weakness" and "it can feel as if we’re not pulling our weight if we’re not present"

Over ear headphones are a pretty good workaround if you don't want to be distracted by the noise.

And for those of us who get distracted by visual noise? Maybe blinkers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkers_(horse_tack))?

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#274

Post by xxs » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

taftster wrote: post #236

chrisbennet wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. They know it reduces productivity but apparently the productivity hit is worth the cost savings. And frankly, from a business perspective, they could be right. Just don't tell me its "to enhance collaboration" [don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining]. Perhaps I was too harsh, there probably are some businesses that actually don't know that developers are much different from customers support, accountants…

Somewhat meta and not being contradictory to your message; but accountants are very much like programmers and need their quiet spaces. Managing complex Excel spreadsheets is about as close to programming as other office work. Ironically, speaking of accountants, I at least have found that in most businesses, the accounting staff do in fact have their own isolated working space. They justify it because of the "sensiti…

Accounting often requires huge amount of folder/files which is next to impossible to organize in an open office -- also there is no QA/automated testing for misfiled numbers/reports.

And last but not least, significantly fewer accounts are necessary in a software company compared to the sheer amount of developers. (monkey ones or otherwise)

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#275

Post by notyourwork » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

garrettdimon wrote: post #149

A lot of the comments here seem to focus on socialization and feeling like you're in a community, but closed offices don't preclude this. I work at Wildbit (the company referenced in the article), and we have family-style lunches around a big table and plenty of common areas where socialization happens in the mornings, during lunch, when people make coffee, and plenty of other times. The key is that when folks are wo…

I find myself and some of my peers working from home on days we need to keep our head down. I agree, organically interaction and social time will exist regardless of open/closed space. The problem I find for myself is that debugging complex problems or designing new complex systems is extremely difficult in an open space. These situations lend well to either booking a meeting room for myself or working from home.

The problem is that neither is ideal because I want to be at my desk. My desk is setup in the way I like and want it to be for my maximum productivity. Now my bookbag becomes a mobile desk with all the fixins so I can get work done in any of the above scenarios without much effort.

This is a problem and frankly I don't see the pros outweight the cons for open office.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#276

Post by notyourwork » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #66

smelendez wrote: post #21

Open offices are awful, but they're here to stay for the same reason more adults are living with roommates and relatives: high real estate prices. Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work for them. Personally, I'd make the shared area for solitary work only: no work discussions longer than a minute at work areas (use a conference room, take a walk or Slack), no eating at work are…

Like cities and human development, there should be different areas for different types of work and different people. Maybe you're a programmer and you want 100% silence, that should be available. Maybe you're like me, who gets a lot more done in a small, focused group. You should be able to squat in a collaboration room all day and get shit done. Maybe you don't mind ambient noise, and like to sit on a couch to work…

Wait wait wait, are you suggesting that not everyone conforms to the same needs? Where did you hear this blasphemy at. Seriously though, I 100% agree that businesses should not treat employees like sardines that all fit in a row and be more accommodating to different people's preferences and needs.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#277

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #181

taway_1212 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We need some kind of vaccine to combat it. > The vaccine is a startup that is 10x (or even just 2x) better than everyone else because they use private offices. At Trello everyone is either remote or has a private office. I'm not sure how to prove that they're 2x (I'd say it's too vague to be provable), but they've managed to do well without taking large amounts of investment, which speaks well of their productivit…

>they've managed to do well I think you're inadvertently undermining your point. Trello wasn't profitable.[1] They were "cash-flow break even" which is also another way of saying they still had not earned enough "free cash flow" to pay back their past internal investments that got them where they currently are. Trello has private offices. Atlassian has open offices.[2] They are also profitable.[3] Atlassian was the o…

Wouldn't you also need to include things like, time from founding, revenue per employee, growth rate, return on investment, etc. to evaluate whether Atlassian or Trello has been the more productive business?

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#278

Post by amag » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

schwap wrote: post #200

jonas21 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over ear headphones are a pretty good workaround if you don't want to be distracted by the noise.

I've found IEM-style headphones are better. Since they already block out some of the ambient noise by plugging your ears, much lower volume levels are required to block out distractions.

I find any kind of headphones to be painful/disturbing after a while. On-ear are the worst (who the F * * * thought pressing your ears into your head was a good idea?), followed by in-ear. The only ones I can wear for any amount of time are over-ear but eventually (if nothing else) your ears will be all warm and that will be disturbing as well.

Besides I really enjoy just silence sometimes, being forced to listen to music does not necessarily improve my focus.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#279

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #96

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strangely, open offices with cubicles can be more expensive than building drywall walls to make closed offices. And the much-vaunted flexibility of cubicles is way, way overrated. In my experience, cubicles sit in the same place for years. Any benefit of re-using them is lost. Also if the company is growing, new ones get bought all the time, so old ones aren't re-used anyway. Its obvious on the face of it: re-usable…

>We need some kind of vaccine to combat it. The vaccine is a startup that is 10x (or even just 2x) better than everyone else because they use private offices. Since that hypothetical business hasn't yet proven that idea, all the articles from journalists writing about "open offices bad" are just preaching to the choir. Even the common cited reason for open offices being "saves real estate costs" is questionable. As a…

There is a weird call out to this work environment in The Social Network, where Zuckerberg is talking to a visitor, but has to keep shooing him away from the programmers on the couches, huddled around the kitchen table, saying "Don't interrupt him! He's in the zone!"

So, recognition of need for deep concentration and focus, but in an environment totally inimical to those.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#280

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

biztos wrote: post #102

Retric wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those cases where middle management is harming the company's long term interests for personal benefits. An annual review or resume benefits from saved X$/year as long as other costs are hidden. Many managers also just like walking past the cube farm to their office.

Are you sure this is a middle-management thing? I always got the feeling it came from some C-level exec giving the thumbs up to the Facilities exec's hateful (but ignorant!) Powerpoint about openness and collaboration and TCO and the fungibility of talent. "Well of course we value openness and collaboration just as much as Facebook does, and they're open-plan!"

And they may honestly not know any better, if the developers haven't come out of their shells to complain to him, and he's seen the photos of Facebook and knows they are maybe the most successful software company on Earth.