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Open offices are bad for us

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Re: Open offices are bad for us

#111

Post by chris_7 »

Maro wrote: post #98

I've been working in open office environments for the last 5+ years, also at one of AmaFaceGooSoft. I find it's a non-issue, it doesn't bother me or others, I can't recall a time in the last 1-2 years when someone complained about it. Saying that o.o. is not effective is a bit fishy given how successful some of the companies employing it are. I remember 10+ years ago at my first job we had a nice office building (it…

Do you have a "shut up" rule, though? I have to endure shared music, discussions about sportsball or TV shows, people making calls, etc. while trying to use a debugger a meter away (pack 'em in!). I could possibly tolerate on-topic discussions, but off-topic stuff belongs in a break room.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#112

Post by chris_7 »

peatmoss wrote: post #24
kbart wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We stayed up very late, listened to loud music, and did some of the best work of our lives." No offense, but that sounds like some kind of boys club, not professional working environment. Staying up late = no respect for private life (unless you've signed for it), loud arbitrary music = forced culture implications (why do I have to listen to the music you like?). Yes, probably our work place expectations differs imm…

"Hey let's all take turns picking the music that gets blasted. I choose Arnold Schoenberg." 5 minutes later... "Everyone, we've decided that music is a personal taste, and that to maintain a professional working environment, we will not be playing music over the sound system."

In practice what I've seen is a "music clique" develops. If I went to put on some ambient Eno or whatever (because it's the closest to "no music"), it would probably be weird because I'm not in the music clique. I'm not really sure how you get to be in it, it would feel weird to me to put on music, effectively saying "everyone else, you must listen to what I choose". Just so rude, I feel.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#113

Post by chrisbennet »

logfromblammo wrote: post #82
muninn_ wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like cities and human development, there should be different areas for different types of work and different people. Maybe you're a programmer and you want 100% silence, that should be available. Maybe you're like me, who gets a lot more done in a small, focused group. You should be able to squat in a collaboration room all day and get shit done. Maybe you don't mind ambient noise, and like to sit on a couch to work…

I once interviewed over a video call. I asked, "I notice you have an open office there. Where do the developers sit in relation to the sales and customer service teams?" They cut the interview short, and I never heard from them again. They know we don't like sitting next to someone yapping on the phone all day. They just don't care .

Bingo. They know it reduces productivity but apparently the productivity hit is worth the cost savings. And frankly, from a business perspective, they could be right. Just don't tell me its "to enhance collaboration" [don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining].

Perhaps I was too harsh, there probably are some businesses that actually don't know that developers are much different from customers support, accountants or typists when it comes to the need for sustained concentration and focus.

(I mean no disrespect to customer support, accountants or typists.)

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#114

Post by chris_7 »

jMyles wrote: post #52
audunw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of people who like open plan. I think the main issue people have is the idea that open plan is superior, and how companies have adopted the plan without any thought or scrutiny (coming up with all sorts of bullshit reason, to rationalize a decision which is really about trying to save money) For a startup or small company doing mostly plain development, and especially if it's a tight-nit group that sta…

I hear you. I prefer floor plans that cater to the mood of the team, rather than setting out some one-size-fits-all-every-day notion of productivity. Thus, it's nice to have open space, but also cozy, comfortable environs for solo- or small-team work. W+K in Portland accomplishes this masterfully.

Have you considered that the team's mood might not actually be as good as you think that it is? It's generally inadvisable to bring up environmental things that are making you unhappy at work, it could mark you as "not a team player" or "not a culture fit". People might be keeping it internal and just waiting it out until they can leave (I'm doing this now, actually).

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#115

Post by Arizhel »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #30
smelendez wrote: post #21

Open offices are awful, but they're here to stay for the same reason more adults are living with roommates and relatives: high real estate prices. Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work for them. Personally, I'd make the shared area for solitary work only: no work discussions longer than a minute at work areas (use a conference room, take a walk or Slack), no eating at work are…

Strangely, open offices with cubicles can be more expensive than building drywall walls to make closed offices. And the much-vaunted flexibility of cubicles is way, way overrated. In my experience, cubicles sit in the same place for years. Any benefit of re-using them is lost. Also if the company is growing, new ones get bought all the time, so old ones aren't re-used anyway. Its obvious on the face of it: re-usable…

You might be comparing to the wrong thing. These days, lots of open offices I see do not involve expensive (low) cubicle walls and desks, they're just simple tables. You can't get much cheaper than simple fold-up tables.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#116

Post by notahacker »

quanticle wrote: post #9
jMyles wrote: post #4

Am I the only one left on HN who prefers open plan? I've done some of my best work for open plan companies. I have a particularly fond memory of when Reelio rented space at Blueprint (healthcare incubator in NYC). We stayed up very late, listened to loud music, and did some of the best work of our lives. I remember one night in particular, listening to the soundtrack from "O Brother Where Art Thou," when asynchrony a…

No offense, but I would suggest that you are highly atypical as a programmer. The vast majority of programmers (including myself) that I've spoken with prefer quiet, static backgrounds. Now, that's not to say that you need your own office to provide a quiet, static background, but it's just a whole lot easier that way. I interviewed last year at a very "tech-bro" type office in downtown Seattle. It was exactly as you…

> No offense, but I would suggest that you are highly atypical as a programmer.

This is probably true, but whenever this subject comes up on HN people tend to forget that programmers tend to be fairly atypical people. Many people - mostly not programmers - find that a number of people around them with a shared purpose and even background noise actually helps them concentrate, and find casual conversations with people on adjacent desks motivating as well as useful for conveying work-relevant information. A working environment designed to the preferences of people who like listening to loud techno music is certainly an extreme way of catering for those tastes, but separate offices and silence is also an extreme.

And the pervasive myth that the only reason anyone would choose to work in an open plan environment is cost-efficiency is rather dented by the number of self-employed people paying (and commuting) to work in shared office space when they could have had more peace and quiet staying at home.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#117

Post by hasenj »

I like open offices because I want to feel like I'm working with people, not in solitary confinement.

When I'm alone in a private room, I'm usually playing; not working.

I find it incredibly difficult to get into working flow when in a private space.

I'm sure I'm not the only one. That's why people go to cafes to work when they have to work "from home".

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#118

Post by 404-universe »

dx034 wrote: post #59

One recommendation for everyone who suffers in an open office: BrainFM. Not affiliated with it, but saw it here on HN on a thread about music, tried it out and I love it. I listen to it daily, have probably heard each track at least a hundred times, but it still helps me to focus. With the right headphones (isolating so that volume can be low), I can zoom out and ignore everything around me. Haven't found any other m…

I've found that http://musicforprogramming.net/ is also good working music, which I found from that same thread you mentioned.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#119

Post by pmcollins »

You could just wear ear muffs and mostly solve the noisy office problem. I wear them when I'm not listening to music and have improved my productivity and happiness at work. (And this is at a cubicle office which is still quite noisy.)

http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-P...

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#120

Post by VLM »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #73
dx034 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Event though dry walls are cheap, you cannot just install them as you can do with cubicles. You'd have to change ventilation to work for all rooms, have proper lights for every cubicle, adhere to fire restrictions (probably alarms in every small room) and will likely need to use more space per employee. Cubicles or open plan is by far the cheapest way to set up an office since you only have one room that you need to…

I had a couple office spaces built out. While we used cubicles for odd spaces (no light/no sprinkler) we tried to use built offices as much as possible. Because it was much, much cheaper. Hundreds of dollars instead of thousands. You can always double-up in a 10X12 office if you grow. And until then, its very nice. And cheap.

One former employer doubled up but only if the parties were opposite "early bird" vs "night owl". My officemate left work at 2 every afternoon to pick up the kids (even in the summer, whatever), then VPNed in from home, and I abused flex time to a level of almost working 2nd shift, so we each had nearly private offices for at least half the work day. It was a small office, couldn't have been more than 10 ft on a side, but remember we didn't need endless collaboration and meeting spaces because we had offices, so the net real estate used was less than cubes or open offices. Also it was cheaper because cubes or open offices falling apart is just being cheap, but a 150 year old building falling apart is financially valuable "character"

Flex time with small group office is nearly ideal. I can spend hours a day with the door closed concentrating or meeting, or hours a day working as a team, it just seems ideal.

Its like the difference between college dorm life with a roommate or two, vs military barracks grid array of 50 beds packed together.

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