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F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#151

Post by zde »

freehunter wrote: post #101
zde wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your statement would be true if test performance varied from real-world performance due to environmental factors, but that's not the case. ..or due to engine temperature, speed, gear, gas pedal position and tons of other variables WHICH IS the case. That's why emission requirements are (and must be) test-specific.

I'm sorry but you're wrong, and since I know you read my comment (you quoted it) it almost seems like you're deliberately wrong. Yes, testing varies from the real world based on a number of factors. Environmental, driving style, etc. And the current tests don't care about that, which is a completely separate problem . The problem that VW got in trouble for is specifically designing their cars to cheat on the existing…

> separate problem

Nope. When doing business, the only thing that counts is formal, verifiable spec. Crying "You have cheated since I wanted somehing else" should be irrelevant in any country that honors rule of law.

> specifically designing their cars to cheat on the existing test.

Test is a predicate. It can pass or fail, but you can't cheat it.

> actively circumvent the purpose of the test

Hmm, that's probably closest to something I can accept as an argument. Nice. But to circumvent the purpose requires an actual purpose. If the purpose is formal, it's the test itself. And if it's not formal, then it's IMO impossible or very hard to prove that it has been circumvented.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#152

Post by bonzini »

otheotheothe wrote: post #102
disiplus wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

diesels are popular in europe for one reason that probably somebody from us will not understand. the price of fuel. because the price of fuel is so much bigger fuel efficiency is the biggest concern

No, thats just one reason. Disel engines are doing way more kilometres in average before they blow up. Nearly all Taxi/Cabs in Europe are Diesel for that reason. I really doubt people care about the emission stuff at all... SRC: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=16748

Actually a lot of taxis are Priuses. In some places they give massive discounts to taxi drivers on hybrids, because people were worried about the reliability of the engine and Toyota figured out that seeing hybrid cabs would be more effective than any advertisement.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#153

Post by zde »

scott_s wrote: post #99
londons_explore wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the case. If it were the case, the regulations would say "No more than X NOX emitted per mile, even when climbing Mount Everest, even when 5 years old, even when poorly maintained, and even when used with low quality fuel, and in all other conditions anyone might put them in." That clearly isn't reasonable, so instead the rules are written to say "They must pass XYZ tests". As long as those tests are pass…

Laws are not software programs. Intent is a part of them, and it was clear the intent was for the testing to be representative of actual usage. It was not because the cars detected a test and changed behavior. That's a clear attempt to circumvent the regulation.

It's some time since I read the details but I remember that lots of people agreed it was not the actual usage, which btw made detecting it so easy. The acceleration was unrealistically long and slow, for example.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#154

Post by zde »

eumoria wrote: post #141
sbov wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't seem to be the same from what I can tell. AFAIK the Harley Davidson "defeat device" would still emit unacceptable levels of emissions during an emissions test. And that they were intended for track/racing use. This is very different from purposefully hiding your emissions levels from testers. Whether that difference is material when meting out punishment is up to judgement. But calling it "no different" seems…

I gotta do some searching but it was explained to me that at the factory they would run the engines extremely lean... like to the point they had to add additional cooling. Then when the bikes arrived at the dealer they would reflash the ECU and have it normally tuned again. EDIT: Not exactly that... from another user "They admit that the modified bikes bypass emissions requirements, whereas the unmodified VWs didn't…

> had to cheat to pass inspection

What, VW bribed the comission? FBI should arrest them too..

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#155

Post by throwaway927315 »

freehunter wrote: post #103
zde wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that the main difference between law evasion (which is illegal) and law avoidance (which is legal) is that evasion is concealed. https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/startup-advice/2015/05/20/tax-... Since VW has admitted to detecting test conditions, it's now no longer evading the regulations but avoiding it, right?

It doesn't really matter what they're doing or saying now, what matters is what they were doing and saying at the time the evaded/avoided the law. If I admit to breaking the law, I still broke the law and I will still be punished for it. It doesn't retroactively make it okay just because I've admitted to it. At the time they submitted their cars for testing, they told the world these cars met the test standards and d…

No, they were avoiding the law, by extra providing power to the drive train at the expense of emissions, when not on a treadmill.

When on a treadmill, the car's emissions control performed within tested standards. That means they only avoided infractions under certain conditions.

Do you always split hairs like this?

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#156

Post by sitkack »

eumoria wrote: post #84
JohnGB wrote: post #46

I wonder if the same would have happened to an American company in the USA. If so, what's the deal with the bankers that did orders of magnitude more damage?

Harley Davidson was caught doing the same emissions scam and no one seems to care. Granted there's less vehicles from them compared to the 11 million Volks but still.

Funny, because Porsche designed some of the Harley engines (and has for awhile).

http://www.porscheengineering.com/peg/en/services/ourreferen...

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#157

Post by xorxornop »

hx87 wrote: post #136
Nitramp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, the question is how much. Cheating on emissions tests is definitely more murder than selling cheesecake. Is it? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/0... > Scientists are asking people across the globe to lay off sugary drinks, linking the consumption to an estimated 184,000 adult deaths each year, including more than 25,000 Americans. I wouldn't expect cheesecake to fare much differentl…

Cheesecake =/= all sugary foods. It's not even a plurality.

Not to mention cheesecake is not pumped into the surrounding atmosphere as a gas where you breathe it involuntarily!

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#158

Post by mcguire »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #122
vkou wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, she went to prison for lying to the FBI - which is pretty much impossible to avoid doing if you spend any amount of time talking to them. Don't ever talk to federal investigators. That's your lawyer's job.

Why not plead the fifth?

Do not "plead" anything. Do not mention the fifth amendment. There are rules there which neither of us knows.

Request a lawyer. That's it. Say nothing else.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#159

Post by ionised »

zde wrote: post #56
snsr wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW did cheat, the cars produce more emissions when not being tested, and it looks like their executives lied about it. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/internation...

And when no one is watching we are invisible!

Do you work for VW by any chance?

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#160

Post by dba7dba »

bflesch wrote: post #144
dba7dba wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody roots for their local boys. The only court system that gave Apple a major win over Samsung in the patent case was in Silicon Valley, CA. Not in Germany, Japan, and other 3rd party countries...

Then I want to be a local boy one day when it makes me immune to prosecution.

Don't we all? :)
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