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Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

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Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#151

Post by throwaway729 »

smallnamespace wrote: post #141
throwaway729 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Because it's a simpler language that contains the key ideas and skills that are trying to be taught, and doesn't contain other distracting details that can't be taught until after basic concepts are well-understood. Same reason lots of people don't like using Java as an intro language even though it's wildly popular. Having students type "public static void main..." a hundred times a semester before knowing en…

Aren't you making two claims that are unrelated? 1. Learning a simple assembly makes learning a second assembly easier 2. Therefore, it's more efficient to learn a simple assembly first The 2nd statement does not directly follow from the first, because the total time to learn two languages can still be greater than the time to learn the 2nd language alone, even if there is a synergistic effect. I'm assuming here that…

No, the claim is that there's a strict ordering of concepts when learning an assembly (or any language).

The conjecture is that using a simpler language makes it easier to teach the basic concepts, and that more advances features get in the way of teaching those basic concepts.

I'm not saying this is true, just that it's a reasonable hypothesis.

Learning a simple assembly may making learning a second assembly easier, but that's beside the point -- you need the basic concepts before any of the advanced/more complicated features become useful. And if the more advanced language gets in the way of learning the basic concepts, that could justify using a simpler language.

This is a hotly contested topic in CS education research, and we're not going to come to a consensus here.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#152

Post by jjoonathan »

justifier wrote: post #145
jjoonathan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you omit capital letters and periods and misuse ellipses in a post which attacks academic English? These choices would be annoying enough in any post but for this one in particular they undermine your credibility.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13251451 i also avoid negative constructions.. look through my comment history you will find it is completely devoid, except now for this comment, of any instances of using: no, not, never, none do you think plato lacks credibility? have you ever read classics(o) in their original languages? theywereflippantinevenusingspacesbetweenwords(i) i would ask that if you care to develop a…

Did you fail the essay because the teacher disagreed with your core claim or because you used the essay as a vessel for an irrelevant grammatical crusade?

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#153

Post by throwaway729 »

Noseshine wrote: post #117
b2600 wrote: post #17

In the comedy movie "Back to School", wealthy business man Thornton Melon hires Kurt Vonnegut to write an essay for him on Kurt Vonnegut for English Literature class. The professor knows Melon did not write the essay and tells him "Whoever did write this doesn't know the first thing about Kurt Vonnegut!." He got an F.

The professor knows Melon did not write the essay So the F actually is for not doing the work, not for the submitted paper. Whatever the professor said was not the reason why he gave an F, given the context it was aimed at the cheater! Which is why he gets an F.

That's part of the conceit of Melon -- that his dishonesty is somehow justified/excusable because someone else is also imperfect...

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#154

Post by throwaway729 »

cixin wrote: post #2

I agree that it's useful to expose children to literature and art, but it feels like there's no way to objectively test it... Maybe creative writing/literature courses should give marks for the most upvotes on Reddit (kidding, but probably more objective than current methods).

An essay in which the student has to present an argument would do finely. You ask "is this a reasonable interpretation, and does the student defend this interpretation in a logical way using the available evidence?" Not perfectly objective, but doable.

Unfortunately, that's much more expensive than a multiple choice test.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#155

Post by WalterBright »

Freak_NL wrote: post #52
Spooky23 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're lucky this is an engineer heavy forum. Around humanities people, your comment is like pouring gasoline in an open flame.

How so? Crudely generalising; wouldn't engineering types be more susceptible to conclude that there is only one sanctioned way interpreting some text rather than someone with a humanities background? (I happen to be both. Poetry to me seems almost by definition something that will evoke different responses and insights for each reader.)

After failing an exam, I was told by an upperclassman that the secret to a good grade in humanities classes was regurgitating the opinions of the professor.

My solution to that was I never took another humanities class.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#156

Post by Paul-ish »

jasode wrote: post #19
mhurron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she had known the answer, would that make the question any better? If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author. If they can not, well maybe the authors intent wasn't what the questions are asking. Of course this is a fundamental problem in the way we teach and test literature. No piece of work has a single meaning because meaning is found in the merging of the…

>If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author. To echo the other comments questioning that premise, there's also the famous Isaac Asimov anecdote: Isaac Asimov often repeated an anecdote based on this: He once sat in on a class where the topic of discussion was one of his own works. (He did this in the back of a large lecture hall so he could remain semi-anonymous).…

Sounds like the professor may have been a fan of new criticism[1], which disregards the authors intent. This make some sense to me, because its not really that interesting to try to debate what may or may not have been going through someones head when they created something, especially if that person is long dead.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorial_intent#New_Criticism

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#157

Post by throwaway729 »

halspero wrote: post #69

Problem is that knowledge can't be measured because it's not a list of contents that can be checked off. Deep knowledge in one area is by its nature integrated with other areas. Thus exams and testing make as much sense as ranking authors by spelling bee.

In some sense, this problem at least indicates we're trying to do something right.

Some knowledge is both necessary and testable: arithmetic, geometry, algorithmic solutions to common problems and properties of those algorithms, spelling of common words, basic grammar, many scientific facts/ideas/techniques.

The learning objectives of Common Core and other curriculum are ambitious -- they want to capture that "deep knowledge" you mention, and are often informed by input from subject matter experts.

However, the realities of modern schooling and assessment are not sufficiently resource-rich to fulfill and measure fulfillment of those standards.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#158

Post by ktRolster »

steveklabnik wrote: post #15
mhurron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she had known the answer, would that make the question any better? If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author. If they can not, well maybe the authors intent wasn't what the questions are asking. Of course this is a fundamental problem in the way we teach and test literature. No piece of work has a single meaning because meaning is found in the merging of the…

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author

Existential comics vaguely addresses the point: http://existentialcomics.com/philosopher/Roland_Barthes

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#159

Post by mcphage »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #133
jjoonathan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you omit capital letters and periods and misuse ellipses in a post which attacks academic English? These choices would be annoying enough in any post but for this one in particular they undermine your credibility.

You've just called into question a race car driver's driving ability because you saw them not use their turn signal. Capitalization and punctuation shouldn't be your signals for quality in a comment on Chaucer and Shakespeare and literary history. I'm demonstrating one natural outcome of your criticism here by using proper punctuation, capitalization, and other grammatical minutiae while knowing not the damnedest thi…

> You've just called into question a race car driver's driving ability because you saw them not use their turn signal.

They're calling into question the driving ability of a self-professed race car driver, who seems to be struggling with the basics of driving.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#160

Post by magic_beans »

zo1 wrote: post #70
Freak_NL wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Crudely generalising; wouldn't engineering types be more susceptible to conclude that there is only one sanctioned way interpreting some text rather than someone with a humanities background? (I happen to be both. Poetry to me seems almost by definition something that will evoke different responses and insights for each reader.)

Spoken languages are inherently vague and open to interpretation and context. As an "engineering type", I would conclude that language is not a good mechanism for communicating concrete details without a lot of scaffolding around it to alleviate the ambiguity. Hence programming, mathematics, diagrams, etc. On top of that, poems are meant to be "artsy". I.e. They specifically use certain words in odd ways as part of t…

The beautiful and fun thing about written language is just how subjective or intentionally vague it is.
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