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Text Your Way to College

nytimes.com

41–50 of 95 posts

Re: Text Your Way to College

#41

On one hand, I hear breathless reassurances from people like Frank Bruni (also at the Times) that "school doesn't matter" and "college is what you make it". At the same time, we get articles like these. Now, as someone pursuing CS at a second or maybe even third tier institution - which is it?

I'll answer the over-arching theme of your question, and then your actual concrete questions.

I'm a self-taught programmer (started freelancing/interning in high school). I then attended a second/third rate institution for undergrad and first rate institution for my phd. I have peer groups from all three of those educational experiences, so I have a unique perspective on this question.

My perspective is that a CS degree maybe isn't worth it (and/or you should get the cheapest one possible) if you're content in a job with an average salary in a regional job market that isn't NYC/SV/Seattle.

If you have higher ambitions (engineering leadership, a job at a competitive employer, much higher than average salary at stable company, research, consulting, uniquely intellectually stimulating work, etc.), things change.

With respect to all of the above career goals, attending a first-rate university is tremendously helpful. First rate universities really do provide education, resources, and peer groups that are all substantially different in kind from the education you'll receive at a second/third rate institution. You'll be treated differently in the job market. That treatment will be rendered for unfair reasons, but will probably be fair treatment -- if you apply yourself even a little, you really will be better prepared to tackle tough problems.

With respect to all of the above career goals, second/third rate universities really are exactly what you make of them. You should treat it as 3-4 years to develop a portfolio of interests, skills, and projects without having to explain why you spent your early twenties un/under-employed.

Now, with respect to your actual questions:

> that "school doesn't matter"

School matters. Sorry, it does. You'll get access to recruiters, and they'll care a lot more about getting you in for an interview. Everything is a little bit easier. You still have to pull some weight, but getting in the door is so much easier. I tried it both ways. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of it.

Someone without a top university behind their name -- or any uni degree at all -- can do anything someone with those things can do. Especially in our field. But it will be tremendously more difficult.

> and "college is what you make it".

That said, college, and all school is always what you make of it. But there's a catch. Not all hard work is equal in value, and not all valuable hard work is noticed. Top schools will try to show you how to do valuable work. They will make sure 100% that valuable hard work is noticed. However, it's still on you to do the hard work part.

Re: Text Your Way to College

#42
post #38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really think it matters. I grew up in government housing as a child, lived in a very violent city all the way through high school, in an area ranked the least educated in the US. I just worked hard, made the right choices, didn't do anything too stupid (or didn't get caught ;-)), and kept at it, studied, building skills. Got an undergraduate and graduate degree from UT Dallas. Started at Amazon shortly after,…

during those 3 years, did you continue learning mostly at work? Or outside? (ie programming languages, systems design, etc.)? Or was it basically "I never brought work to home."?

I mostly stayed focused on work... that's why I stopped working on http://ihackernews.com and other side projects.

I worked probably 60 to 80 hours a week -- because I wanted to, not because I was forced. Managers actually asked me to work less.

I learned at lot at Amazon (across retail and AWS) so I didn't feel the need to keep up the level of studying I did prior to working at Amazon. Reading code reviews and watching email lists is a great way to learn and Amazon has really good internal emailing lists.

Re: Text Your Way to College

#43
I'm from a family in the bottom income bracket, and I went to Stanford.

It's as alien and daunting as the article makes it sound. I would never have thought to apply if it weren't for a suggestion from my aunt who married rich. My high school guidance counselor was completely unhelpful, and she actively discouraged all of my peers who I wanted to apply with me (because "Stanford wants 1s and 2s," not people ranked 5th or 8th in the class). When I got in, I had to ask a relative to pay the $300 placeholder fee. My mother cried because she didn't believe that I could get full financial aid.

It was easy to spot the two other low-income students in my 100-person freshman dorm. We didn't know how to talk or study or dress or think the way our peers did. It took me years to learn.

My sister was in the same position, but didn't have the blind ambition to ignore our hometown horror stories ("he was top of his class, but he went off to some fancy college and ended up flunking out..."). I convinced her to apply to several very prestigious schools. She was accepted, but went with a more modest, local one instead. She spent her freshman year interpreting every setback as a sign that she had overreached by going to a four-year university at all. It turned out fine, but she switched her plans from medical school to nursing by graduation.

It's hard to communicate to people who grew up with even modest privilege how much all of this matters. My worlds before and after Stanford feel entirely separate. The Internet helped, but I was like an archaeologist combing through relics of a long-dead culture. What counts as an Ivy? How did these schools have so many AP classes? Why did all of these people have SAT tutors -- weren't tutors for people who were behind?

Information matters. Culture matters. I was lucky, but a few well-placed text messages could absolutely replicate that luck. Even to just say, "We noticed you're a good student. You could go here. You could afford it. This is doable." Hearing that from any authority at all would be huge. Because when you're low-income or first-generation, everyone and everything in your life is constantly telling you the opposite.

Re: Text Your Way to College

#44
post #43

I'm from a family in the bottom income bracket, and I went to Stanford. It's as alien and daunting as the article makes it sound. I would never have thought to apply if it weren't for a suggestion from my aunt who married rich. My high school guidance counselor was completely unhelpful, and she actively discouraged all of my peers who I wanted to apply with me (because "Stanford wants 1s and 2s," not people ranked 5t…

Just curious -- what did you study and what do you do now for work?

Re: Text Your Way to College

#45
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet none of that matters if top companies don't interview at your school for internships...which they don't for the most part.

I didn't manage to land any interviews at "top" companies when I was in college, but I think that was largely because I applied way too late (apparently for companies like Google,FB, etc, you need to apply by like November of the year before for internships). However, I do know other people who managed to get Amazon, Microsoft, and Google internships even though they didn't interview at our school, so there seems to…

[deleted]

Re: Text Your Way to College

#46
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's implied in the article that the opposite is true. Certain elite schools cover tuition, room and board, and occasionally supplies for low-income students through merit-based scholarships [1] even for out-of-state students, while many state schools can only afford to grant fewer full-rides, and usually only covering the in-state price -- with out-of-state being significantly more expensive. This doesn't mean that…

You are not necessarily in disagreement with IslaDeEncanta, as they said "lower middle class", not "low-income". What exactly constitutes "middle class", and even "lower middle class" is not clear. But, I think, most would agree "low income" means not middle class, so you're probably talking about different sets of people.

My friend had subsidized tuition at Columbia, and IIRC their cutoff at the time (2009-2013) for household income was $100k. If it's a similar figure at other schools, I guess you could decide on some sort of demarcation around there.

Re: Text Your Way to College

#47
post #25

Going to an Ivy League school does not help the student earn more money compared to going to a non-Ivy, except for students from certain disadvantaged backgrounds. "students, who were accepted into elite schools, but went to less selective institutions, earned salaries just as high as Ivy League grads." http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2...

There's also the argument that especially as a physician you have the obligation to your patients to do the best job you can. It's true for any profession but for physicians it's hard to see why anyone would object the reasoning. The difference between a top-25 school and anything else is like day and night, the students, the faculty, the equipment, the exposure to current research, and it's still true even though it may not be reflected in compensation.

Re: Text Your Way to College

#48
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not necessarily in disagreement with IslaDeEncanta, as they said "lower middle class", not "low-income". What exactly constitutes "middle class", and even "lower middle class" is not clear. But, I think, most would agree "low income" means not middle class, so you're probably talking about different sets of people.

You're right. I wasn't really talking about people in poverty/near poverty. They can benefit from the network involved with an Ivy more than just about anyone, because they usually don't have a network at all.

Everyone talks about the networking but this can't possibly be true for everyone. What if you're just not good at networking? And do poor kids on scholarships get accepted by their yacht-class peers?

Re: Text Your Way to College

#49
post #43

I'm from a family in the bottom income bracket, and I went to Stanford. It's as alien and daunting as the article makes it sound. I would never have thought to apply if it weren't for a suggestion from my aunt who married rich. My high school guidance counselor was completely unhelpful, and she actively discouraged all of my peers who I wanted to apply with me (because "Stanford wants 1s and 2s," not people ranked 5t…

I had a similar experience from a working class, 2nd income quartile household, with little contact with big cities or big universities.

SAT prep? Tutors? Private school? Scoring well on AP tests? These are unknown.

But as you say what matters most is information and role models. Many people from outside the upper middle class didn't know about other opportunities. And when they did know, they didn't even think about the opportunities because they didn't know anyone like themselves doing those things.

I was lucky to have parents that prioritized education, and a middle school teacher who took an interest in me and got me applying to some summer programs where I met kids who modeled a bunch of different possible paths.

It's important to make kids aware of opportunities. Then it's important to make sure they have role models and encouragement.

Re: Text Your Way to College

#50
post #43

I'm from a family in the bottom income bracket, and I went to Stanford. It's as alien and daunting as the article makes it sound. I would never have thought to apply if it weren't for a suggestion from my aunt who married rich. My high school guidance counselor was completely unhelpful, and she actively discouraged all of my peers who I wanted to apply with me (because "Stanford wants 1s and 2s," not people ranked 5t…

>>We didn't know how to talk or study or dress or think the way our peers did

I know exactly what you mean. Whenever I wanted to try something new, like apply to an internship, my brain tried really hard to convince me not to do it because I would get rejected. My subconscious tried really hard into making me a complete looser. To this day I sometimes have to tell it to shut up.

I come from the bottom of the bottom. I felt intimidated by everybody, especially those people that belonged to a higher income family. The good upbringing was noticeable.

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