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Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

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Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#111

Post by tehabe »

08-15 wrote: post #98
PythonicAlpha wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad truth is, that we would not need stricter standards, if the current standards would be met in reality -- that would be much better than another EURO 7 or 8. The other sad thing is, that the praised German car manufacturers are about to loose against new comers from the US and China. Good for the environment and the health of the people of course .... but how said Gorbatschow: "Who comes to late ..." But that…

> Schroeder The guy known as Gazprom Gerhardt, who coincidentally decided to phase out nuclear power? Yeah, sad story.

IIRC he wasn't a big fan of the phase out. We had to force him. Also natural gas is mostly used for heating in Germany. Something the German nuclear power plants never could provide.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#112

Post by 08-15 »

tehabe wrote: post #111
08-15 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Schroeder The guy known as Gazprom Gerhardt, who coincidentally decided to phase out nuclear power? Yeah, sad story.

IIRC he wasn't a big fan of the phase out. We had to force him. Also natural gas is mostly used for heating in Germany. Something the German nuclear power plants never could provide.

Actually, the (East-) German plant in Lubmin provided district heating for the city of Greifswald. It has been shut down and the district heating is now provided by---wait for it---a gas burner. NPP Gundremmingen, which is still operating, provides district heating on a somewhat smaller scale.

Besides, while most natural gas consumed in Germany may be for space heating and/or industrial heat, it also provides about 9% of the electricity, which is still a good chunk of money for Gazprom Gerhardt.

By the way, who is the "we" in "we had to force him"?

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#113

Post by 08-15 »

throwaway729 wrote: post #106
08-15 wrote: post #96

> Nitrogen oxides cause tens of thousands of early deaths in Europe Complete bullshit. There isn't a single death certificate in the world that lists "NOx poisoning" as cause of death, unless it was an industrial accident. These numbers come from assuming that some high dose of NOx will kill you, therefore 1% of that dose kills one in a hundred. So, at least for regulatory purposes to scare people, we can take a tiny…

Do you have a source on that? I thought that the numbers came from extrapolating from large population studies on the effects of air pollution (e.g. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199312093292401#t=a... ).

The article itself cites the Guardian, who cites the European Environmental Agency, who cites REVIHAAP, which is only a review. REVIHAAP (http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/193108/R...) mentions a lot of studies that estimate the proportionality factor between mortality and NOx concentration. This is precisely the method I described above: assume proportionality, then estimate the proportionality constant, then multiply by millions of people and get a scary number. Few studies in the REVIHAAP report cite actual concentrations, but when they do they are invariably much higher than the 20µg the EEA applies as lower cutoff.

(The study you linked to doesn't include NOx. REVIHAAP itself has more inapplicable stuff, such as one study that actually looked at proximity to roads, then noted that they can't tease apart the effects of NOx, ozone, soot, etc, then proceeded to make a claim about NOx specifically anyway.)

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#114

Post by tehabe »

08-15 wrote: post #112
tehabe wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC he wasn't a big fan of the phase out. We had to force him. Also natural gas is mostly used for heating in Germany. Something the German nuclear power plants never could provide.

Actually, the (East-) German plant in Lubmin provided district heating for the city of Greifswald. It has been shut down and the district heating is now provided by---wait for it---a gas burner. NPP Gundremmingen, which is still operating, provides district heating on a somewhat smaller scale. Besides, while most natural gas consumed in Germany may be for space heating and/or industrial heat, it also provides about 9…

The East German nuclear plants went offline pretty quick after the unification. And yes there are a few natural gas plants, they would actually much better now than those annoying coal plants which were build recently. They are faster and way more efficient. (faster in the sense that you can turn them on and off w/o much lag.)

The heating in Grundremming is new to me, only found a press release from 2012 in which is mentioned. Anyway.

We is the basis of the Social Democratic Party of Germany. In which there was a majority agains the usage of nuclear power for a long time now. It was part of the party platform in 1998.

Also it was his home state of Lower Saxony. The Wendland region was the centre of the resistance against nuclear power. And it was never about the safety of the plants itself but about what should we do with the radioactive waste. A question still unanswered to this day.

The issue in this discussion about Diesel and Gerhard Schröder is a different one. When he was Prime Minister of Lower Saxony and when he was the Chancellor, he always listened to the automotive industry. And this haunts us to this day.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#115

Post by headmelted »

gambiting wrote: post #41
headmelted wrote: post #12

I'm in Northern Ireland, and while I can't speak for the rest of the UK or Europe, I know the stats put diesel vehicles at almost half in Europe as a whole. It sounds absurd, but I can see the increase in Diesel soot on the roads and pavements here, and more often than not, it can be smelt from passing traffic. To be fair, that I've become more aware of it is making me notice it more - but I live now not so far from…

It's made worse by the fact that manufacturers don't offer, or offer worse petrol engines in the UK, pushing buyers towards diesel. For the past 10 years, you couldn't buy a petrol Land Rover in the UK, despite the fact that petrol land rovers are assembled in the Sollihul plant. The Latest Discovery 5 finally has a petrol option, but the Discovery Sport is still only offered with a diesel, despite the fact that the…

I think the bigger scandal is that we continue to incentivize diesels.

Obviously no-one wants to admit that they were wrong, but to continue to tax existing diesel vehicles lower because of reasons we now know to be bogus is a disgrace.

Diesels need to be taxed MUCH higher than petrols, especially those without AdBlue injection.

Long range EVs can't come soon enough. Even still, my next car is a Leaf.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#116

Post by 08-15 »

tehabe wrote: post #114
08-15 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the (East-) German plant in Lubmin provided district heating for the city of Greifswald. It has been shut down and the district heating is now provided by---wait for it---a gas burner. NPP Gundremmingen, which is still operating, provides district heating on a somewhat smaller scale. Besides, while most natural gas consumed in Germany may be for space heating and/or industrial heat, it also provides about 9…

The East German nuclear plants went offline pretty quick after the unification. And yes there are a few natural gas plants, they would actually much better now than those annoying coal plants which were build recently. They are faster and way more efficient. (faster in the sense that you can turn them on and off w/o much lag.) The heating in Grundremming is new to me, only found a press release from 2012 in which is…

> They are faster and way more efficient

Either or. Combined cycle ("GuD") is more efficient than coal, simple cycle responds faster. But you'll never guess what responds the fastest---it's the large nuclear plants (http://www.mb.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/sites/Archiv/pdf/Sonderdruc..., p.10).

Waste should be recycled, unlike the wastes from fossil fuels, such as NOx, which have to be released into the atmosphere.

Anyway, at least we can agree that Gazprom Gerhardt was a crook.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#117

Post by fjrieiekd »

headmelted wrote: post #12

I'm in Northern Ireland, and while I can't speak for the rest of the UK or Europe, I know the stats put diesel vehicles at almost half in Europe as a whole. It sounds absurd, but I can see the increase in Diesel soot on the roads and pavements here, and more often than not, it can be smelt from passing traffic. To be fair, that I've become more aware of it is making me notice it more - but I live now not so far from…

Diesel can be really nasty, much worse than modern gas cars. Even having a diesel truck in front of me is enough to make me gag. It's one of the things I don't like about Europe or certain Caribbean islands where diesel is very popular. Luckily it's not as popular in North America.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#118

Post by fjrieiekd »

guscost wrote: post #94
dovdovdov wrote: post #9

But, they have all those blue and green emblems on the back. :/ When I see these cars getting floored and I see the dark grey/black smoke coming out I often wonder, this must be super healthy for all of us.

The smoke/soot you can see is particulate matter, not NOx. That's only a problem with older diesels or if the owner removes the filter, modern diesels with intact DPFs emit way less particulate matter than an average gasoline car. The health problem with NOx (as I understand it) is that it will react with oxygen producing ozone and therefore smog, if there is enough in the air.

Even new diesel trucks from Japan do this in places like the Caribbean. Maybe the standards are lower but I haven't seen a similar problem with new gas cars.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#119

Post by guscost »

fjrieiekd wrote: post #118
guscost wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The smoke/soot you can see is particulate matter, not NOx. That's only a problem with older diesels or if the owner removes the filter, modern diesels with intact DPFs emit way less particulate matter than an average gasoline car. The health problem with NOx (as I understand it) is that it will react with oxygen producing ozone and therefore smog, if there is enough in the air.

Even new diesel trucks from Japan do this in places like the Caribbean. Maybe the standards are lower but I haven't seen a similar problem with new gas cars.

The US has way stricter new car auto emission standards than pretty much anywhere else, and I think lots of countries don't require DPFs at all, good point.

If the US standards get much stricter there will have to be PM filters on gasoline cars too.

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