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The Reality of Developer Burnout

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Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#141

Post by jaimex2 »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #99
user837387 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is full of contrarians. Say anything blunt, not rude but blunt, and you will get down-voted to oblivion. And not even that, say something in a polite way that people cannot discredit but still not like and you will get down-voted. I feel like you have to mold yourself to the hive mind if you want your stuff to be up-voted. Not sure if this is really how it is or if it is just me. On the other hand, a lot of times…

I always wonder why people care so much about getting downvoted. I get downvoted all the time but who cares, these votes are just some meaningless statistic.

Its a stupid system.

Its essentially giving the Internet a self moderation system for... the Internet.

I hate myself for have an impulse to read the comment section too, I don't know why I do it. There's nothing productive in it.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#142

Post by eliasbagley »

zoeysaurusrex wrote: post #6

> Not only that, but I found myself censoring my own private thought processes, in the silent comfort of my own home, because of the public opinion of people I follow on Twitter. I deleted my Twitter account because of this. I realized it was an empty echo chamber of inaction. If anything you say can be interpreted in a way that the hivemind can destroy you over, they will do it, even with incomplete information and…

> I realized it was an empty echo chamber of inaction. If anything you say can be interpreted in a way that the hivemind can destroy you over, they will do it, even with incomplete information and little to no proof.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#143

Post by debt »

aaronscott wrote: post #133
debt wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people who love their jobs can also burn out? I don't buy it. Personally, I've never heard of or met anyone who loves their job and has burned out. Have you?

I've experienced this first hand. It's a surreal feeling, because you know that objectively everything is awesome, but emotionally you want to throw it all away. I have also experienced burn out with a job that I disliked. In both cases there is a feeling of not being able to focus on the work at hand, that more effort will make you physically sick. The author's example of eating ice cream at every meal resonates wit…

"conceptually amazing"

doesn't mean you love your job. means it's great as an idea on paper maybe.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#144

Post by mattbettinson »

zoeysaurusrex wrote: post #6

> Not only that, but I found myself censoring my own private thought processes, in the silent comfort of my own home, because of the public opinion of people I follow on Twitter. I deleted my Twitter account because of this. I realized it was an empty echo chamber of inaction. If anything you say can be interpreted in a way that the hivemind can destroy you over, they will do it, even with incomplete information and…

I love the term digital junk food. Something I'd never considered until now.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#145

Post by wyum »

debt wrote: post #78
1_2__3 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're actually making the issue worse by conflating burnout with simple... I guess laziness? In fact the whole reason why burnout is such a fascinating phenomenon is because it takes otherwise highly productivity people who do not hate their job and turns them into minimal-productivity people who do hate their jobs. That's nothing at all like you're describing.

So people who love their jobs can also burn out? I don't buy it. Personally, I've never heard of or met anyone who loves their job and has burned out. Have you?

Yes.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#146

Post by mikekchar »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #99
user837387 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is full of contrarians. Say anything blunt, not rude but blunt, and you will get down-voted to oblivion. And not even that, say something in a polite way that people cannot discredit but still not like and you will get down-voted. I feel like you have to mold yourself to the hive mind if you want your stuff to be up-voted. Not sure if this is really how it is or if it is just me. On the other hand, a lot of times…

I always wonder why people care so much about getting downvoted. I get downvoted all the time but who cares, these votes are just some meaningless statistic.

Why post at all?

For me there are 3 reasons:

- I want to formulate some idea in my head and writing down something in response to other people is a way for me to organise my thoughts. In this case, I don't really care about upvotes or downvotes.

- I want to help a specific person. Sometimes people post something and I think, "I'm pretty sure I can write something that will help that person out". Again I don't care about upvotes or downvotes. It's nice if the person responds and says that it helped them, though. It's depressing when they respond and you realise that they didn't understand at all ;-)

- To practice communicating. Ideally it's on a topic that I know something about. Upvotes are my measure to see if people understand what I'm saying. Downvotes are useful to show when I'm just plain wrong (which happens from time to time).

The problem with voting systems, though, is that it becomes a proxy for approval. People try to cultivate approval and it becomes important for them to write something that gives them that approval. I'm not immune to this, but it's something that I try to avoid as best I can.

I think it is reasonable to care about downvotes to the extent that it means you should probably examine your message or the way that you are delivering your message. Given that you want to communicate, excessive downvotes mean that you are not being successful to the bulk of your audience. That should be an inward process, though. Getting angry at other people for your own inability to communicate is understandable, but not productive (I'm not implying that you do that, BTW...)

P.S. This post can be filed in category #1 ;-)

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#147

Post by purephase »

varjag wrote: post #81
haswell wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that yes, it is different in software development. The nature of ditch digging is such that given enough effort, it's probably still possible to dig a ditch. It doesn't mean you'll be motivated to dig the ditch, it doesn't mean it won't be ridiculously hard to dig the ditch, but barring seriously physical issues preventing you from making progress, digging a ditch is mechanical and doesn't really involve a…

Hilariously I'm that person who was forced to dig ditches a few times and experienced a mild case of burnout as developer. In both cases the performance was similar. With earthworks I simply didn't give a damn about the job, so just pecked the ground unenthusiastically. With burnout it was as if petard went off, but instead of earbuzz you get numb to planning, focusing and executing. I actually felt bad about it, but…

I don't think you understand the previous comment. Often, with burnout, motivation is not necessarily the issue. You try, or believe that you're trying, your absolute best but everything is falling down around you.

It's not just about motivation, it is just that your perceived ability to execute (going through the motions) and actual ability are completely at odds and you eventually lose all confidence in yourself to continue.

It's not motivation for the job, it's belief in your own abilities / capabilities that erodes your motivation.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#148

Post by dwaltrip »

rdavl wrote: post #138
dwaltrip wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also unless you are doing really stressful work what is it that makes you burn out? I think you are making too many assumptions about what kind of work and what work environments are stressful for different people. Could the term "burn out" be abused? Of course, it's something that is difficult for others to verify. That fact doesn't make it less real for those actually experiencing it.

Maybe I am, but really stressful environments are stressful for everyone. If you are unable to cope with some levels of stress it is not the coding that is the problem, it is you. Or do we just go around blaming everything else for our problems? Should I blame you or me for my karma score? Come on...

He's not blaming others.

He took ownership of the situation and made specific changes in his life. And guess what? It was a good thing. He said he is doing better now.

Sure, often times people struggle with making these types of improvements in their lives, but I think it is pretty antagonistic to view that as some sort of shameful moral failing, as you seem to be describing. For some, they might not have a lot of great options in the near term, and dealing with that can be difficult.

What's your main point here? It seems like you have some sort of axe to grind.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#149

Post by dasil003 »

willstrafach wrote: post #129
metaphorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the easiest way to collect upvotes is effluvient praise for whichever silicon valley company is currently the "great golden hope". the easiest way to collect downvotes is to contradict any of PG's implicit or explicit biases. the weight of mass down-voting seems to have improved since sama has taken over and PG is blogging less.

interestingly, posts such as yours (calling out hivemind / mass up/down-voting) seem to easily get a large amount of upvotes as well.

They get a lot of eye rolls too, but we don't have any metrics on that.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#150

Post by mikekchar »

lacampbell wrote: post #124
aaron-lebo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is feeling more and more contrarian lately in my comments here and regretting it, I think it's because after a decade of HN, everything starts to the look the same. Everybody is trying to sell a framework, a startup, a language, or their own personal brand and it turns into a big circlejerk of everyone patting themselves on the back because they've got some secret knowledge. Sometimes it doesn't seem l…

I've enjoyed arguing (debating?) who with people about OO and FP here. I don't get the downvoting backlash despite going a bit against current fashions (I still like objects and think they make a great foundation for computing in general). The only time I get heavily downvoted for being critical is when I mention a certain programming language - which I happen to like.

The only time I've ever been heavily down voted here is when I've been blatantly wrong (although it sometimes takes me a while to figure out what was wrong about what I said).

I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times. I was actually surprised that you found yourself downvoted, so I had a quick peek. In reviewing the posts which appear to have been downvoted recently I have to say that they seem to be unnecessarily inflamatory. Possibly some frustration you feel is escaping. I'm sure when you look at it, it doesn't seem so because your view is filtered by the context of what you meant rather than specifically what you said. Others don't have the ability to distinguish that as easily. Experimenting with other ways of expressing that frustration will probably help. My own personal experience has been that when I consciously tackled this issue, it really helped my professional life as well. I had a pretty bad reputation as being negative early in my career.

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