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The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

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Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#61

Post by ryanSrich »

wavefunction wrote: post #56
ryanSrich wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

I downvoted you for the ludicrous statement that middle-class is $200k in household income, especially in a mid-to-small-size city. Wages have not been keeping up with costs or you might have a point.

I think people are misinterpreting my opinion of what middle class should be and the realities of what the middle class has become.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#62

Post by mac01021 »

pradn wrote: post #43
ryanSrich wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

Two kids is excessive? By what measure? Human populations need a birth rate of 2.1 to even stay at the same level.

At the moment, though, we are probably better off shrinking our numbers.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#63

Post by home_boi »

emcq wrote: post #48
ryanSrich wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

I don't know anyone outside of tech or medicine bringing in 200k for the household. It looks like that would put you in the top 5% of income, squarely outside of the norm: http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income...

I am assuming he means $100k per person in NYC/SF. That's the entry level salary for even marketing/business workers in many companies.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#64

Post by gipp »

ryanSrich wrote: post #58
gipp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$200k is the 94th percentile of income.

I'd imagine that's less so when you look at popular cities. The parent post wanted an opinion on middle class. My opinion is that middle class incomes in cities is around $200k (or should be if you want to be somewhat comfortable). I see houses all around me in Portland going for $800k, $900k, and $1mm plus. That's certainly much more than what a middle class income could afford. So considering those prices are fairl…

The argument was that middle class could afford a decent place in cities with lowered standards -- but you define middle class as "people who can afford a decent place in cities?" Surely you see the circularity here.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#65

Post by muhfuhkuh »

ryanSrich wrote: post #40
contracantor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make a statement like that I'm going to need an example of what you consider middle class, what you consider affordable and what a reasonable square footage is for a family of 4.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

> 200000 household income.

You realize the median household income is 50000, right? So, in a small city you have to make 4x the national median to just survive?

Wow, I know the West Coastians live in a well-protected self-imagined bubble, but this comment really brings it to light.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#66

Post by navbaker »

ryanSrich wrote: post #40
contracantor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make a statement like that I'm going to need an example of what you consider middle class, what you consider affordable and what a reasonable square footage is for a family of 4.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

I'd be interested to hear more about why you think two kids is "excessive".

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#67

Post by _m8fo »

I agree with the article. However, people should be able and willing to make the appropriate sacrifices commensurate with their future expectations.

If someone is 22 and is making 35k a year, and can keep all of their expenses at 15k per year (it's easy to find places in Dorchester 850 rent all inclusive for a room plus 150 food and 3k year entertainment), save 5k per year for retirement and emergencies and finally save 10k for a house they'll be have 100k when they're 32. With 100k in boston that's 25 percent on a 400k house in a suburb or parts of Dorchester. Worst case, move somewhere cheaper and that can be as much as 50% down.

Keep in mind this assumes no salary increases and no spouse. It's very doable, but people want to live a lavish life. Can you live a lavish life in Boston for 35k? Nope.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#68

Post by jamespitts »

The reasons behind the housing supply crisis are many, and the situation can seem intractable.

I have been assisting architect Eugene Lew with a comprehensive and audacious solution to this problem. If you are interested in reading a draft version of his white paper, DM me on https://twitter.com/jamiepitts.

The concept is tailor-made for the west districts of SF but can be applied to any city.

It combines finance, architecture, land-creation, community involvement, and propagation, and the output is a nonsubsidized 3BDR, 2BA home for households with incomes between $100,000 and $150,000. There are 15 homes in a six story elevator building, and the goal is to build hundreds of them across SF.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#69

Post by rdlecler1 »

gaius wrote: post #41
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> terrible public schools There are affordable parts of Long Island and Connecticut with great public public schools less than an hour from Manhattan by train. We've grown accustomed to overporting our post-war suburban archetype of what a "middle class" family "deserves," i.e. lots of bedrooms, garages and lawn space, while diminishing previously (and still!) common practices like having roommates when young, not ow…

Right. People expect to skip straight from 22 or even 18 to a late-20s or early-30s level of "stuff" and general lifestyle, without paying their dues in the middle. It's called a "property ladder" for a reason.

It's less of a ladder than a Ponzi scheme. In SF housing prices have grown at a compound growth rate of 6% for over 50 years. Older generation squats on property paid for by debt, low taxes, and then retires at 60 -- all paid for by a younger generation that doesn't have jobs and can't afford housing.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#70

Post by wavefunction »

saryant wrote: post #27
legodt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a lot of those professions can't afford rent inside the city and are forced into unwieldly commutes and lose out on the benefits of being in a city

The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in San Antonio is $1200 (the seventh largest city in the nation). The median home price is $228k, so with a median income of $51k that means the average person would be paying 21% of their gross income towards housing costs, well within the range of "affordable."

It seems very strange to compare gross income to housing costs and deem a situation 'affordable'. When FICA and Federal income tax is subtracted from that $51k ($9,800)[0], we're left with $41,000 of net income.

I pay around $1600 monthly for a $227,000 house in Austin, so the housing cost would be $19,200 / $41,000 or _46%_ which is absolutely not 'affordable.'

[0]https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes#1DOWfkzhx3

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