The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#41

Post by gaius » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:29 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

schoolsman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in a decent part of Queens for $240k - definitely affordable for middle class. Do you have kids? Because this glib reaction signals that you don't, or you'd be aware that the areas you are touting as affordable have terrible public schools. That's why they're relatively cheap. T…

> terrible public schools There are affordable parts of Long Island and Connecticut with great public public schools less than an hour from Manhattan by train. We've grown accustomed to overporting our post-war suburban archetype of what a "middle class" family "deserves," i.e. lots of bedrooms, garages and lawn space, while diminishing previously (and still!) common practices like having roommates when young, not ow…

Right. People expect to skip straight from 22 or even 18 to a late-20s or early-30s level of "stuff" and general lifestyle, without paying their dues in the middle. It's called a "property ladder" for a reason.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#42

Post by saryant » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #26

legodt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a lot of those professions can't afford rent inside the city and are forced into unwieldly commutes and lose out on the benefits of being in a city

Sure they can, have you never lived in a mid sized city? Those horrendous commutes are more common to large cities that can't support the population demand. Mid sized cities don't have that problem as much. There are plenty of suburbs within a 10-20 minute driving distance from the city. Also, businesses operate in those surrounding suburbs. I like mid sized cities. Not too large, not too small, but just right.

I'm baffled as to why this was downvoted. It's a perfectly reasonable opinion.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#43

Post by pradn » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #40

contracantor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make a statement like that I'm going to need an example of what you consider middle class, what you consider affordable and what a reasonable square footage is for a family of 4.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

Two kids is excessive? By what measure? Human populations need a birth rate of 2.1 to even stay at the same level.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#44

Post by ghaff » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

jghn wrote: post #37

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somerville is expensive as hell , despite the fact that it used to be known as "Slumerville" and the housing stock hasn't improved one bit.

I think they're counting Somerville and similar locales as part of the urban core. By that metric though places like Mattapan should also be part of the urban core and are a lot more affordable.

Somerville is more accessible to both Cambridge and downtownish Boston where a lot of the professional jobs are than somewhere like Mattapan. But to your broader point, yes, there are certainly parts of the City of Boston that are considerably cheaper albeit less desirable from housing stock, safety, environment, etc. perspectives.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#45

Post by gipp » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #40

contracantor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make a statement like that I'm going to need an example of what you consider middle class, what you consider affordable and what a reasonable square footage is for a family of 4.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

$200k is the 94th percentile of income.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#46

Post by jamespitts » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #31

The middle class can afford to live in cities, just not in a 3500 sqft house with a 2 car garage and a boat, and with the best school district and certainly not in NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc. There are plenty of places to live in America. You have to adjust your standard of living and your expectations according to your income and desires.

This is a view that will lead to a highly dysfunctional society.

First off, you are dismissive of the issue with that bit of exaggeration. It is not as if this group wants all the good things in life that only a tech salary afford. Perhaps a dignified life would be sufficient.

You also place NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc. into a category of city that is naturally not available to the middle class. Is NYC a luxury like a 3500 sq ft house and boat? Housing scarcity and the resulting price inflation is actually a situation that residents of cities accidentally created, something highly unnatural.

Working class and middle class people are critical to the economy and wider culture of cities. Teachers. Police officers. Artists. The guy who makes your coffee. The gal not from a wealthy family who wants to start a business.

It is not enough that a certain group can just live somewhere in America. Critical workers must live within a reasonable commute to their jobs.

There should be plenty of places in each city for them to live in, and there should plenty of infrastructure in place to move them about.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#47

Post by mixmastamyk » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #14

Clubber wrote: post #5

Strange, I'm middle class and I live in a city. There are other cities than NYC, SF, LA and Boston.

It's not even true of NYC; it's true of Manhattan and Brooklyn. Is it true of LA? That also sounds wrong to me.

Our rent went up 7% this year in LA, but our income didn't. The writing is on the wall I think.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#48

Post by emcq » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #40

contracantor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make a statement like that I'm going to need an example of what you consider middle class, what you consider affordable and what a reasonable square footage is for a family of 4.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

I don't know anyone outside of tech or medicine bringing in 200k for the household. It looks like that would put you in the top 5% of income, squarely outside of the norm: http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income...

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#49

Post by martingoodson » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #40

contracantor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make a statement like that I'm going to need an example of what you consider middle class, what you consider affordable and what a reasonable square footage is for a family of 4.

Middle class in a small to mid size city is $200k in annual household income. A family of three should have no problem in 1200sqft. Two kids is excessive, but if you do have two kids you'd be fine in 1500sqft.

For someone living in the UK that sounds like a far off utopia. Government recommendations are about 1000sqft for a family of five. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technical-housing...

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#50

Post by franzen » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

rublev wrote: post #18

Clubber wrote: post #5

Strange, I'm middle class and I live in a city. There are other cities than NYC, SF, LA and Boston.

What about places like Canada? Where your only real options are Toronto and Vancouver. Other places are lonely and small. Personally I'm into music. Composing, playing shows, going to the symphony, the opera, the ballet. Sure, I could leave Toronto, except now I'm in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs and no culture. Now what? I'm sure it's similar for others in the US.

Montreal slays. Most underrated city in North America IMO.