China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017 • Hacker News Board

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#141

Post by padobson » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:05 PM UTC

chanderson0 wrote: post #51

For data on elephant populations and the effect of ivory bans or increased demand, check out: https://elephant-atlas.org/ - including an API. The counts come from an awesome program called the Great Elephant Census ( http://www.greatelephantcensus.com/ ). Disclaimer: I work for The OCR

I am largely uninformed on this topic, so maybe you can answer a dumb question:

If ivory is in such demand to the point that it has a large black market, why aren't there more attempts to domesticate and breed elephants for ivory? It seems like with selective breeding you could eventually breed small elements (that don't eat a lot and take up too much space) that have large tusks (and produce a lot of ivory).

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#142

Post by ralfd » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

victornomad wrote: post #107

mingdingo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them around. I've never seen crue…

have you ever been in a farm? it sounds really cruel, yes, but thats quite similar to the majority of the meat production... sadly :(

Yes, i have been and have seen or heard anything like that.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#143

Post by ralfd » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

mingdingo wrote: post #88

DoodleBuggy wrote: post #19

They need to go further and ban any and all exotic animal trade for the quackery medicine and delicacy markets.

As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them around. I've never seen crue…

I guess it is cultural? You often also hear animal cruelty stories from their zoos:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoer...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#144

Post by truth_sentinell » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

sprayk wrote: post #118

truth_sentinell wrote: post #110

Please stop saying that hunting is a solution to preserve animals. It's cruel and non-sensical. Hunters actually say that they help preserving animals. Bitch if you wanted to help you'd be donating, not bragging your vanity and your hollowness on some poor's animal corpse. Saying hunting is a solution is like saying killing poor people is a solution to poverty...[..]

Hunting itself doesn't preserve animals, but the desire to hunt for sport over profit (i.e. poaching) allows for a system that preserves animals. Hunters want to keep hunting, so they have implemented a sort of market for tags that makes sure populations remain healthy. Right now it seems like the majority of money coming into organizations tasked with preserving wildlife comes from hunters. After all, it is in their…

I understand but it is really messed up that people even consider that moral. I'm sorry but I can't get any "a bit more" out of killing indefense animals for pleasure. It's just irrational. I believe these thirsty people for blood are just one step away from killing people. There's definitely something wrong in their heads.And the vast majority are white middle-class gun lover (nationalist) people. There must be some correlation.

If you feel like killing something, play some cod, jeez.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#145

Post by ghaff » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

lobotryas wrote: post #106

mingdingo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree the West needs to improve animal welfare even further. But SOME cruelty laws are better than NONE, which is why I bring up China more. But you're totally right, there's awful stuff going on here, too.

Here's an interesting point: do we know that the poultry/fish industries can absorb the cost of "humanely" raiding these animals without collapsing? Assuming the money is there and this law would not kill an industry, how can we ensure that these cost increases are not passed on to the consumer? Living in the US is expensive enough. Would you guarantee "ethical eggs" if the cost was fewer poor people could afford the…

Of course, increased costs will be passed onto consumers. Who else are they going to be passed on to? The magic money tree in the sky?

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#146

Post by neolefty » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 2:39 PM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #143

mingdingo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them around. I've never seen crue…

I guess it is cultural? You often also hear animal cruelty stories from their zoos: https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/169fyr/chinese_zoogoer...

There is also growing sympathy for animals in China, in my experience, but it's a few generations behind the West. My family just moved back to the US from 5 years there.

(1) A story: My two younger daughters, probably 9 and 11 at the time, were on the street in Chengdu near our apartment, and they saw a puppy, probably stray. A granny was out with her toddler grandson, and when they saw the puppy too, the granny brought her grandson over and physically swung his feet at the puppy to kick it. She was teaching him to kick a stray dog. My daughters were shocked that someone would "teach a child to kick dogs".

(2) China is still very much recovering from PTSD as a nation, from the events of the 60s and 70s. It will take another couple generations for the panic over survival to fully recede, I imagine. Animal rights are a luxury compared to survival (in people's minds).

(3) Change comes extremely fast in China -- people are very connected and can collectively shift their opinions and outlook in a heartbeat, when they're ready, thanks in part to WeChat, and in part to culture, which inculcates rapid adaptability to changing conditions.

(4) On the other hand, China is still 40-50% rural, where animals are livestock and not pets. That will likely not change as long as people eat meat! (Or at least change very slowly -- see US meat industry for example.)

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#147

Post by creepydata » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

padobson wrote: post #141

chanderson0 wrote: post #51

For data on elephant populations and the effect of ivory bans or increased demand, check out: https://elephant-atlas.org/ - including an API. The counts come from an awesome program called the Great Elephant Census ( http://www.greatelephantcensus.com/ ). Disclaimer: I work for The OCR

I am largely uninformed on this topic, so maybe you can answer a dumb question: If ivory is in such demand to the point that it has a large black market, why aren't there more attempts to domesticate and breed elephants for ivory? It seems like with selective breeding you could eventually breed small elements (that don't eat a lot and take up too much space) that have large tusks (and produce a lot of ivory).

The most obvious reason is they are difficult to breed in captivity. They have very long lifespan, long reproductive cycle, low birth rate, and high infant mortality and stillbirth (at least in captivity).

They also don't require a lot of space just because they are physically large... They require a large amount of space because they are elephants, so making them physically smaller wouldn't be helpful in reducing their space requirements.

That's all with ignoring all the impossible logistics, massive capital investment, and animal welfare concerns.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#148

Post by pixelbill » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 3:13 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #34

goda90 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they just tell that to foreigners who ask questions.

I wasn't a foreigner: I lived in the UAE for 14 years. Besides, she was pretty taken aback when I asked, and I made sure to convey my surprise at the dish.

So is there any reason in particular that the thought of eating something containing shark fin "disgusted" you, but all of the other animal parts on the menu were just fine?

The level of hypocrisy in this thread is incredible. Save the elephants, save the sharks, save the whales; I guess because we think those animals are coolest/cutest they get a pass. Guess what other animals are smart? Pigs. They can do math and make good pets and we mow them down by the millions. How about cows? They are sacred in some countries, I bet someone from India would be "disgusted" that they sell dead cow in American restaurants!

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#149

Post by pixelbill » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 3:26 PM UTC

truth_sentinell wrote: post #144

sprayk wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hunting itself doesn't preserve animals, but the desire to hunt for sport over profit (i.e. poaching) allows for a system that preserves animals. Hunters want to keep hunting, so they have implemented a sort of market for tags that makes sure populations remain healthy. Right now it seems like the majority of money coming into organizations tasked with preserving wildlife comes from hunters. After all, it is in their…

I understand but it is really messed up that people even consider that moral. I'm sorry but I can't get any "a bit more" out of killing indefense animals for pleasure. It's just irrational. I believe these thirsty people for blood are just one step away from killing people. There's definitely something wrong in their heads.And the vast majority are white middle-class gun lover (nationalist) people. There must be some…

You obviously didn't do any research into the subject you are talking about, or are just ignoring it, so let me inform you.

You know what's even more messed up than killing an animal? Humans suffering and dying due to extreme poverty.

Rich hunters come to these countries with lots of money that they pay to the locals and government in order to hunt these animals. The locals then use that money to help conservation efforts with animals as well as help provide food, shelter, and clean water to the population.

Yes, your favorite looking animal that you've never actually seen in real life will die, but the lives of thousands of humans will be improved because of it. People who vehemently speak out against these things like yourself just come off sounding like ignorant children.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#150

Post by Cyph0n » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

pixelbill wrote: post #148

Cyph0n wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't a foreigner: I lived in the UAE for 14 years. Besides, she was pretty taken aback when I asked, and I made sure to convey my surprise at the dish.

So is there any reason in particular that the thought of eating something containing shark fin "disgusted" you, but all of the other animal parts on the menu were just fine? The level of hypocrisy in this thread is incredible. Save the elephants, save the sharks, save the whales; I guess because we think those animals are coolest/cutest they get a pass. Guess what other animals are smart? Pigs. They can do math and m…

Whales are endangered. Sharks are killed solely for their fins. Same goes for elephants and their tusks.

Cows and pigs are killed humanely, and used efficiently, with a clear goal in mind: feeding humans.

I'm disgusted by shark fin soup because of wastefulness. Why kill a living being if you're just going to use an insignificant part of it?

We can argue about this all day, but in the end, it's all relative. Until we can come up with a synthetic and affordable alternative to meat, this is going to continue, whether you like it or not.