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Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

propublica.org

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Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#111

Post by dabockster »

maglavaitss wrote: post #103
Chronic2h wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go ahead and take the moral high ground here. No one is stopping you. But you'll be broke as hell if you do (or run out of funding).

As someone who's been bootstrapping his own startup for the past ... 6 years and refused VC money (not for moral reasons), I have to take it. I still refuse to implement Google Analytics and integrate FB/Dropbox/Google in any of the projects I'm involved with. Moralist? No, I'm just not into feeding the monster.

Got a link to your startup?

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#112

Post by ghughes »

nxc18 wrote: post #89
hueving wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Facebook isn't doing the collection Who is it then that allows facebook like buttons and social widgets to be integrated into other sites?

Facebook does that data collection, but not the data that the article discusses - no social widget is responsible for figuring out your income or what you do at physical retailers.

> no social widget is responsible for figuring out your income

That is actually an intended purpose of many social widgets.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#113

Post by maverick_iceman »

ForrestN wrote: post #86
closeparen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

The problem is misleading the public about the nature of the information gathered and the shady ways that the information is sometimes used. If Facebook were only gathering information necessary to improve the experience of its users, and were not selling that information or lying about it, I don't think you'd see the same backlash.

They have to make money somehow, don't they?

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#114

Post by maverick_iceman »

closeparen wrote: post #84
ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

Seconded. I would gladly hand over my personal data if it means improved FB/search experience. I think there's a large number of people who share my viewpoint. If someone is concerned about protecting their online privacy they have the option of not using those services. (I know about trackers on third-party websites. It's pretty trivial to block them.)

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#115

Post by laughingman2 »

ForrestN wrote: post #60
pipio21 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not wrong when you benefit from it. This is a human trait, people do not see the wrong on the things you benefit from. For example, did you ate beef or fish lately? When was the last time you thought about the animals that were killed in order for you to eat them. Have you seen the sacrifice of an animal needed for eating it. In Mongolia or Middle East nomads will sacrifice the animal in front of you before eat…

Ironically I'm a vegetarian for just these reasons. I don't say that because I'm perfect (I am not yet fully vegan, for example) but because I do take ethics seriously. Maybe we do rationalize too often, but shouldn't we still try to work against that impulse? The fact that something unethical benefits me generally makes me more upset, not less upset.

Thats great of you, I am vegetarian by birth, became vegan by choice , Even in vegetarian people rationalise when they come to terms with messy aspects of dairy farming.

The question of ethics is weighing hard on me, even normally rational people who talk about human rights etc turn off their ethical circuits when question of meat comes up .. I think this points to a deeper question of how rationalising can affect morality ..

Does average human consider their wants above ethics he seems to subscribe? , why is hypocricy not making many upset? Many won't consider themselves as beings who put only themselves above others, they cry out for morality, but when question of ethical boundaries they themselves cross, it becomes question of rationalisation.

One has to really ponder, did a slaver in the past (sad that its not that ancient) who cared about ethics of his fellows , rationalised away his slavery?

If people really thing about this in terms of past people rationalising stuff away, if they feel upset about that, maybe it will lead to them thinking about ethical problems they too rationalise away

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#116

Post by maverick_iceman »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #90
closeparen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

The problem I have with it is that Facebook decides what "improve" means -- it tries to groom me like cattle rather than ask me how I want to experience it or who I want to be "optimized" in to being. And that's okay, so far as they're open about it. But I don't think they are, especially the sophistication of their psychology research (and experimentation).

If you don't like Facebook, don't use Facebook.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#117

Post by underdown »

onewaystreet wrote: post #92
ForrestN wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is misleading the public about the nature of the information gathered and the shady ways that the information is sometimes used. If Facebook were only gathering information necessary to improve the experience of its users, and were not selling that information or lying about it, I don't think you'd see the same backlash.

> If Facebook were only gathering information necessary to improve the experience of its users, and were not selling that information or lying about it, I don't think you'd see the same backlash. Facebook doesn't sell information, it sells ads. That's not the same thing.

They sell ads by offering this information in the form of targeting.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#118

Post by quadrangle »

I know this is too late to get noticed much, but here's the truth:

This is a race-to-the-bottom. Everyone in this whole area has to compete with whoever is the scummiest exploiter unless they really go out of their way to sell their service with privacy and ethics as the top feature. So, some ethical niche services can exist, but meanwhile, everyone else is screwed, and network effects make any niche thing stay pretty irrelevant.

The only way to avoid races-to-the-bottom in a competitive market is with real enforceable regulation that outlaws the worst shit and requires truly effective disclosures otherwise. That's not easy, sometimes it's impossible, and it often has major negative side-effects and problems, but whether or not we determine that regulation is worth it or not, we know that races-to-the-bottom are a real thing, so we can give some leeway that each company isn't actively trying to be malicious — they are just competing in a race-to-the-bottom situation (and we can reject the dogmatic free-market people who deny that this and all sorts of other natural market-failures exist).

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#119

Post by csydas »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #116
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with it is that Facebook decides what "improve" means -- it tries to groom me like cattle rather than ask me how I want to experience it or who I want to be "optimized" in to being. And that's okay, so far as they're open about it. But I don't think they are, especially the sophistication of their psychology research (and experimentation).

If you don't like Facebook, don't use Facebook.

I think the problem rests more on the fact that as it stands Facebook profits regardless as to whether or not you use it. The same collection happens across numerous non-Facebook sites and apps, from data other people reveal about you, from apps and companies that are bought up by Facebook, and so on. The idea of "if you don't like it just don't use Facebook" becomes very difficult to implement when modern existence feeds into Facebook it seems.

It's the involuntary participation in facebook's arrangement that people are bothered by.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#120

Post by chris_7 »

SamBoogieNYC wrote: post #106
deepsun wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend at Facebook. Yes, they do understand that some data they collect is pretty ... private. But since it's good for Facebook -- it's good for them. In all personal discussions they defend the company to the point that I started feeling like there is some mind-washing going on. Of course it's just a feeling, but my point is -- they don't think it is bad.

I heard the urinals at Facebook have a sheet at eye-level where the week's "metric-to-hit" is posted. Methods like this seem to be effective, but creepy and invasive.

I've been in the Facebook office and it's true that they have information posted above the urinals. Didn't really read it though.
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