No tipping means better business • Hacker News Board

Re: No tipping means better business

#451

Post by nommm-nommm » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:39 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #383

nommm-nommm wrote: post #318

I read an argument once that that tipping is probably illegal under US employment law because, in practice, its racist. Research indicates that servers who are ethnic minorities are tipped less than white women, who are tipped most. Sure the employer isn't doing the discrimination themselves but they are setting up compensation scheme that, in practice, is discriminatory. This is called "adverse impact" in US employm…

It seems like you're only classifying the physical labor as "work", and ignoring the skill and effort it takes to do all the stuff a waiter/waitress does. There's a lot of memorization involved, being able to answer a lot of different questions, making sure the meal gets delivered as soon as possible, with the right stuff, and checking back at the correct times to see if anything else is needed, including drinks. It'…

The busboy was the one who made sure the meal was delivered as soon as possible with the proper stuff. The waiter had no part in the food or drink delivery.

Even if "it's a lot harder than it seems" (which really, what?) it's not 90% more work the busboy was doing... remember the busboy also buses the tables. Answering a few questions about the menu is not significantly more difficult than clearing tables.

(Then there's the places where the kitchen staff brings out the food...or they have "runners" who are responsible for bringing out the food.... really, I hate to generalize but as a group servers have a seriously inflated sense of importance, restaurant service is a team effort)

Re: No tipping means better business

#452

Post by csydas » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:41 PM UTC

joshontheweb wrote: post #395

csydas wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I'm an expatriated US citizen, and I find the restaurant service abroad on par with US restaurants, with the only difference being how much lip service is given by the servers. To explain it simply, in US restaurants, I feel like someone is trying to brown-nose the entire time. It's not value that I seek, it's someone doing something and trying to place value on it. The servers are mostly pleasant, and at…

What upsets me is when I have to wait too long for refills on drinks and if I'm not checked back on to see if anything else is needed shortly after the food is served. I've had many experience in non-tipping countries where you may never see your waiter again after the meal is served. Of course, thats just my experience but it seems fairly consistent. I never have that problem in the US and if I do, I certainly don't…

I cannot speak for all restaurants and all counties, but as noted in my comment, I'm currently abroad in Russia (St. Petersburg), and while it's true that the servers generally don't check in for anything else other than the bill once the food is served, it's also true that they'll be there pretty much immediately if you ask for them or signal them. A simple gesture and they'll be there pretty much as they are able to be.

To me this seems the right balance of service and respect of privacy.

As an aside, my experience is that most restaurants also don't really do refills so much as "another drink purchase", so it kind of makes sense in my mind that they're not keeping an eye on how much liquid you have left - if you want to spend money on another drink, you'll let them know.

I think this is just a cultural difference as well as a different way of business. To me having a server constantly checking in on how much is left in my glass or interrupting to pour a drink is more disruptive than a quick gesture to catch the server's attention and signal them over.

Re: No tipping means better business

#453

Post by Jemmeh » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:45 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #441

Jemmeh wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true of any job though. Why single out restaurants? I'm all for automating jobs in general, but we're not there yet.

For me I'm thinking of "the service industry", the lower end. Here employees are low-skill, therefore at the mercy of employers who can swap them out for a less testy serf if required. Those further up the value chain have more of a give-and-take relationship with their employer, the supply/demand curve is more in the favour of the employee. The employee has better savings and is not facing missing next week's rent i…

It is a different dynamic. The minimum wage needs to be up, but I wouldn't go from saying that to "shut down all restaurants".

Not sure about what could be done about supply/demand. They are low skill jobs. Most people could learn to do them pretty quickly. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to be paid properly-- the current economy is creating those jobs, we still need service people. They are working hard. But as far as supply/demand goes, I think there would always be a surplus of people who have the ability to do those jobs.

Re: No tipping means better business

#454

Post by logfromblammo » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:50 PM UTC

jghn wrote: post #416

logfromblammo wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard tip for table service at a restaurant in the US is 15%.

Not for at least a decade, more in larger cities.

A percentage-based tip scales with the prices on the menu, which are closely associated with the cost of living in a particular area. A 15% tip is exactly as appropriate in 2016 as it was in 1916. It works as well in Florence, Alabama, as it does in Baltimore, Maryland.

The only reason to increase the percentage of table service tips is if the restaurant employee does more for the customer. I have not observed this to be the case in the last decade, in larger cities or out of them.

Re: No tipping means better business

#455

Post by ydt » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

bkor wrote: post #378

ydt wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing. I worked in the restaurant business in various capacities all through college. As a cash transaction, it will come as no surprise that a lot of tips go unreported as income. From time to time the IRS will decide the reported income from a restaurant seems low and audit the staff. It was generally understood that if you had reported 10% of your sales as a server/bartender as tip income you'd be ok. I…

This still doesn't explain why it should be a percentage other than that everyone assumes a percentage.

You're right. I didn't say it did. I was just trying to give some insight into how it works for people that have maybe never worked for tips. I am of two minds about tipping. As a customer it would be nice if these jobs provided a decent base pay + benefits and everything was just priced into the meal. On the other hand I would have hated this when I worked for tips, as I hustled and provided good service which allowed me to make a lot more than co-workers who didn't.

Re: No tipping means better business

#456

Post by coldtea » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

Trundle wrote: post #262

coldtea wrote: post #37

> Now what if we were to magically make tipping disappear? Think about the diner for a second. What if, by removing tips from your restaurant, you’ll actually end up delighting more guests, improving your food, and retaining employees? Well, I've dined all over the world (not an American btw), and the US had the most friendly and alert waiting stuff, which I guess it's at least party because of the tipping. Sure, in…

Definitely cultural as the other guy said. When I visit the US I imagine I get much the same experience as you but instead of "friendly" and "alert" my description would be more "intrusive" and "transparently faking a level of happiness I only experience very infrequently and never while at work."

>but instead of "friendly" and "alert" my description would be more "intrusive" and "transparently faking a level of happiness I only experience very infrequently and never while at work."

I don't require genuine friendliness from waiters. Feigned friendliness and politeness will do just fine, since the purpose is to just get better service, not to make friends with the people at the restaurant.

So, the problem is we get it much less in Europe.

Re: No tipping means better business

#457

Post by george_ciobanu » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

Tipping is asking the consumer to do the work of management - you decide if our employee did a good job and how much they deserve. I'm here to have dinner, thank you, not to assess how your employees behave and decide how much they should be paid.

Re: No tipping means better business

#458

Post by coldtea » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

nommm-nommm wrote: post #388

Trundle wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely cultural as the other guy said. When I visit the US I imagine I get much the same experience as you but instead of "friendly" and "alert" my description would be more "intrusive" and "transparently faking a level of happiness I only experience very infrequently and never while at work."

I am from the US and I couldn't agree more. The whole fake niceness is just so draining on you to put up with all the time, day in and day out. You aren't my friend, I am just trying to get through my day.

>The whole fake niceness is just so draining on you to put up with all the time, day in and day out. You aren't my friend, I am just trying to get through my day.

So, genuine unfriendliness (try France waiters) or rudeness (try a lot of Europe) is better?

Re: No tipping means better business

#459

Post by titanomachy » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

gkuan wrote: post #450

demosito666 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is tipping somewhat mandatory in the US? Everywhere I've been it's up to the customer to decide if he wants to leave the tip. What if I won't leave tips?

In some places, the wait staff will grab you on your way out and notify you that you didn't tip enough (say 20% instead of 30%).

I tip 15-20%, have lived in the States and Canada my whole life, and this has never happened to me.

Just adding that to provide perspective of how common this is, for readers outside of North America.

Re: No tipping means better business

#460

Post by shanemhansen » Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #383

nommm-nommm wrote: post #318

I read an argument once that that tipping is probably illegal under US employment law because, in practice, its racist. Research indicates that servers who are ethnic minorities are tipped less than white women, who are tipped most. Sure the employer isn't doing the discrimination themselves but they are setting up compensation scheme that, in practice, is discriminatory. This is called "adverse impact" in US employm…

It seems like you're only classifying the physical labor as "work", and ignoring the skill and effort it takes to do all the stuff a waiter/waitress does. There's a lot of memorization involved, being able to answer a lot of different questions, making sure the meal gets delivered as soon as possible, with the right stuff, and checking back at the correct times to see if anything else is needed, including drinks. It'…

As someone who worked in the restaurant industry, and who's immediate and extended family worked in the restaurant industry, this feels like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...

I've worked at pretty nice restaurants and while attitudes like yours were pretty pervasive, the only real difference between bussing and waiting was that wait staff was over 21 and thus able to serve alcohol.

I can also tell you from years of experience that waiters are the most stuck up classist poor people I've ever seen.