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No tipping means better business

tastefulventures.com

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Re: No tipping means better business

#151

Post by mcv »

kasey_junk wrote: post #147

The last issue "Chef's will love you" has a lot less to do with tipping or not (personally I'm against tipping and wish it would go away, but its not why back of house staff get stiffed). Back of house staff, in the US, cannot tip share. Its against the law. Assumedly this was originally meant as a worker protection, but in recent years, especially at higher end establishments, it acts as a wage limit for the people…

Those are bizarre laws. I'm not sure if Netherland has any laws on tipping and sharing them, but I think some places share their tips with the entire staff. If you can tip the waiter for excellent service, then you should also be able to tip the kitchen staff if the food is particularly excellent.

Re: No tipping means better business

#152

Post by cyberferret »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #38
Symbiote wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other services would you introduce tipping to? Fast food? Buying shoes? Car wash? Repairing plumbing? Fixing a computer? I don't see why eating in a restaurant should need extra incentives to the waiters, when we expect good service without tips elsewhere.

Many years ago I was working in the US for a few months and went to get a haircut. I wondered why the guy looked at me strange when I suck my hand out for my change. It wasn't until I was back in my hotel room that realised I was probably supposed to tip.

Same experience on my first trip to the US. The taxi ride from airport to hotel was $12. I didnt have small notes on me as i had just changed my money, so i gave him a $20 note.

I waited and he just looked at me incredulously and asked "What? Do you want CHANGE??". I apologised and said i forgot about the tip thing and perhaps he could just give me a couple of singles as change. I thought that basically 40% tip was a little high. He gave me a couple of bucks back with ill grace.

Pretty much turned me off the whole expected tipping culture altogether.

Re: No tipping means better business

#153

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

turndown wrote: post #123
okonomiyaki3000 wrote: post #75

Having lived in Japan for a long time, I kind of dread visiting America because of the whole nonsense of tipping (and lot of other reasons, really). There's simply no concept of it here and yet the service is excellent. I don't know what the typical wage is but I know people who work in service jobs and seem to have a lot more disposable income than their counterparts in the US. I also know people who work as servers…

I've worked as both a server and a delivery driver, and even after having left both jobs I'd still be in favor of tipping because I think it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job. The US simply doesn't have the same culture Japan has. That said, travelling to the US shouldn't be handicapped by a fear of tipping. Don't tip, or do, but not going because of it is an unfortunate choice.

it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job

However, tipping only exists in certain jobs, and apparently people who do other jobs do them just fine in the US. So tipping doesn't seem to be necessary.

By the way, I also think the tipping issue is a significant annoyance when going to the US. I love visiting the US and definitely it's not a reason for not going (and I don't think the GP meant that either), but probably my most uncomfortable moments there (excluding when I was detained at customs, I think due to having the same name as a criminal) have been when I got disapproving or even downright angry looks for (unintentionally) not giving the expected tip due to not knowing all the details of customs by state, restaurant type, etc.

Re: No tipping means better business

#154

Post by EliRivers »

aethant wrote: post #141

I'm assuming you've never been to a country that doesn't have tipping, or were shielded from service in such a country, if you were. Customer service in these places is horrible. Why? Because it makes no difference to them if you are pleased or not. They could care less. If doing some simple math is so difficult, your phone has a calculator, or ask for a pen and paper.

So not true.

I don't tip the checkout staff at the supermarket. Service is fine. I don't tip my accountant. Service is fine. I don't tip the car valet. Service is fine. I don't tip the waiter. Service is fine.

Why should the waiter provide poor service uniquely amongst all these untippes service providers?

If you experienced poor service in a non-tipping culture, it's not because the server knew there was no tip coming. It's because you had a bad server.

The evidences indicates that tipping does not improve service.

http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/psychology-agrees-with-d... ... and many more.

Especially in cultures where it's expected. I see people get awful service sometimes and then they tip. Tipping in restaurants in the US is not about service. It's about being able to pay employees below minimum wage and make them dance like monkeys to pay the rent.

Re: No tipping means better business

#155

Post by mcv »

raverbashing wrote: post #112
ezoe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One more thinking. The tipping is dumping. The seller(who is the employer) offered a product with the price they choose. That price should reflect all the necessary costs of the product, including the salary to the workers. By demanding the tipping, they make the price cheaper than it actually is. That is dumping.

> By demanding the tipping, they make the price cheaper than it actually is. That is dumping. No. This would apply if you actually paid less than it actually is It might be false advertisement though

Exactly. It's false advertisement, and wouldn't be acceptable in most countries that care about such things.

Re: No tipping means better business

#156

Post by kasey_junk »

mcv wrote: post #151
kasey_junk wrote: post #147

The last issue "Chef's will love you" has a lot less to do with tipping or not (personally I'm against tipping and wish it would go away, but its not why back of house staff get stiffed). Back of house staff, in the US, cannot tip share. Its against the law. Assumedly this was originally meant as a worker protection, but in recent years, especially at higher end establishments, it acts as a wage limit for the people…

Those are bizarre laws. I'm not sure if Netherland has any laws on tipping and sharing them, but I think some places share their tips with the entire staff. If you can tip the waiter for excellent service, then you should also be able to tip the kitchen staff if the food is particularly excellent.

The labor laws in the USA are extremely bizarre. Wait staff have a different, much lower, minimum wage than other workers. The restaurant is required to pay them the regular minimum wage if their tips do not make up the difference, and this is a source of many labor complaints.

For most wait staff this is not an issue. Their tips put them well above minimum wage status, but that is one of the big drivers of the tipping culture in the USA. Many of us know (as in had to pay our rent that way) that if you don't tip the waiter 20-25% it dramatically impacts their income. But that money cannot be shared with the back of house staff.

For high end restaurants this has a real impact on their ability to keep young kitchen professionals (and its also a driver of why so many undocumented workers work in low end kitchens, its a very poorly paying job in almost all cases).

Re: No tipping means better business

#157

Post by Zalastax »

smallnamespace wrote: post #83
ohwello wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is also taxing them $X a year on the land. It's not just about whether return is positive, it's about the highest ROI considering opportunity cost. Consider a simple case where two lots with…

> With a tax on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred. Yes, but that's because tax on land + improved value distorts incentives (by discouraging improvements). Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of comparison is against no land taxes of any form. In that world, you would prefer to develop the single lot because you need to buy less land, so the result is the sa…

> Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of comparison is against no land taxes of any form.

That really confused the whole discussion as the current situation is tax on land + improved value, making it look like you were arguing from the other side. No tax at all is anyway taking it to the extreme as the government need money, so it becomes merely an academic exercise.

Re: No tipping means better business

#158

Post by eeZah7Ux »

aninhumer wrote: post #90
lefstathiou wrote: post #16

I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play telephone from one side of the room to the…

Based on what I've seen in the US, tipping doesn't encourage good service, it encourages noticeable service. I'd rather be served by a slightly inattentive sullen teenager in the UK, than a perky waitress with a fake smile pestering me all the time in the US.

How about a third option: a professional that knows how to give food and wine recommendations when asked with no fake smiles and pestering. In some european countries this would be normal even for small moms-and-pops restaurants.

Re: No tipping means better business

#159

Post by padobson »

Tipping is essential. It's the most common generosity exercise in everyday life. It gives us a chance to flex a muscle we don't flex often enough.

We should be doing it more, not less. We should tip the cashier at the grocery store and our mechanics and our mail carriers and the referees at high school sporting events.

Paypal tip jars and Humble Bundle's Pay What You Want model are two examples of tipping on the web that I'd like to see more often. The more nudges toward generosity, the better.

Re: No tipping means better business

#160

Post by EliRivers »

danielhooper wrote: post #44

Tipping is great because it provides the customer with some leverage to pay a price they feel is fair. Not to mention it allows many many many many people to live somewhat comfortably despite working in what would be considered a lowly occupation. We haven't even talked about how service workers are salesman and saleswomen who are provided the opportunity to be compensated more for greater achievement, and the busine…

Complete advantage? I've seen those dickwads, toying with the wait staff to make themselves feel like a big man.

How about disliking tipping because it's demeaning to everyone involved. People relying on my charity to make their rent, despite working a full time job. What kind of messed up system is this?

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