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Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

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Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#51

Post by k__ »

3131s wrote: post #47
dimino wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, people are saying, "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? Why can't I just use Bootstrap because I don't feel like designing an app, and Bootstrap is the fastest way to get a consistent layout on web and mobile? What's it got to do with learning at all?

> "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? No, it's not. I don't want to start a CSS flame war, but at least for layout / positioning I struggle every single time with CSS, especially on sites with dynamic content. CSS is my least favorite part of the web development stack by far.

True, but since I startend using CSS frameworks I didn't have too write much of it.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#52

Post by redlofa »

Everyone opting for "do your own CSS" and not using a framework, is absolutely a horrible idea. You will not be the only one writing CSS for long term for your app I assume, any new member will find it extremely difficult where to modify following some good standards. They might miss a lot of things or overdo things perhaps.

Regarding learning BS3 or BS4, I'd opt for BS4. All you have to know what things BS4 provide and use them appropriately. Not to mention, some fairly good CSS knowledge is also a pre-requisite. One of the themes we recently used is startUI (google for it). It's on BS4 and the components were easy to integrate in apps.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#53

Post by imafish »

3131s wrote: post #47
dimino wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, people are saying, "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? Why can't I just use Bootstrap because I don't feel like designing an app, and Bootstrap is the fastest way to get a consistent layout on web and mobile? What's it got to do with learning at all?

> "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? No, it's not. I don't want to start a CSS flame war, but at least for layout / positioning I struggle every single time with CSS, especially on sites with dynamic content. CSS is my least favorite part of the web development stack by far.

I agree whole-heartedly. Frontend web development is broken in that sense. In no way does it make sense to define a layout through a Stylesheet. Most of the other frontend "languages" get this. HTML needs layout tags, e.g. for grids and panels.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#54

Post by nkkollaw »

pedalpete wrote: post #2

Learning Bootstrap 3 or 4 should take you very little time, I would suggest you don't learn either of them, but instead take the time to learn CSS (I am of course assuming you are not already a CSS wiz). You can look at the source of Bootstrap to see how they accomplished certain things if you'd like, but if you're doing anything more than prototyping (and even then), I feel there is very little benefit to using Boot…

I don't think he's asking whether he should learn CSS or Bootstrap, just what version of Bootstrap he should learn.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#55

Post by nkkollaw »

KayL wrote: post #49

To answer this question, I'm more interested in how do you learn it first. All these frameworks are just COPY & PASTE the pre-made code. For example, you wanna button in that style: http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/buttons/ Copy that code and paste into your HTML. Whatever v3 or v4 are the same way. If your learning way is memorizing the code without checking the document each time, then I'd say v3.

Copying and pasting wouldn't work, because many times you need to customize things.

Also, what a nightmare would be to look it up every time you need to use a component!

Of course learning it means to learn components by heart, just like you don't look up built-in functions every time when you use a programming language.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#56

Post by nkkollaw »

kyriakos wrote: post #46

If you don't plan to support IE9 then by all means use Bootstrap 4. But keep in mind that Bootstrap (or any CSS framework) are not a perfect solution for not learning CSS. Sooner or later you will need to modify bootstrap or create your own styles.

How do you know he plans to not learn CSS, or he doesn't know it already?

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#57

Post by nkkollaw »

markdown wrote: post #38
webbrahmin wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate why you don't use them on a production site. It will be really helpful.

BS is ridiculously bloated.

You should take a look at Semantic UI if you want bloated.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#58

Post by nkkollaw »

I'll actually answer your question.

I've been using Bootstrap 4, since it's already stable and will come out in a few months anyway, so I won't have to upgrade anytime soon.

If you use libraries that depend on Bootstrap, you might want to check compatibility. I was using Bootswatch and the developer didn't upgrade the code to Bootstrap 4 until a few weeks ago. Other than that, I see no reason not to use the latest version.

I'm surprised by all the comments saying that you don't have to learn Bootstrap but you can just look up the components every time you need to use them, suggesting you use Skeleton, or that if you use Bootstrap you don't want to learn/know CSS. Nonsense.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#59

Post by Brajeshwar »

On a serious note, I believe the befitting proverbial advice is, "Give a Man a Fish, and You Feed Him for a Day. Teach a Man To Fish, and You Feed Him for a Lifetime."

You said "learning", so I'd still suggest learning the actual CSS. Of course, when you become a bit comfortable with it, you'd have already learned Bootstrap.

Here is how I'd for;

- Use Bootstrap 4 or even 3 to learn your CSS. Use it, go through the source codes and learn from there. - Keep doing CSS (feel free to try other frameworks too) and you should be on your way.

The analogy I can find is that quite a lot of people "learned" jQuery. Then, they figured out that it is, well, JavaScript. They got intrigued, went backward and learned JavaScript. Many enterprising developers advance and 'learn' other frameworks too.

I used to be in the camp where my take was, "learn the actual raw CSS and JavaScript - that's the way to learn." But my experience dealing with juniors, and new developers is that not everyone can just learn something. In fact, a lot of people do not know how to learn things the right way. They need to first learn to learn new things.

So, take it easy on yourself, start with something you can start off (and produce something you're proud of) and begin learning real CSS in the process.

Well, my team specialize mostly in fixing projects shoved down by developers using Bootstrap, where the enterprises needed to go to market quickly. Once they reach critical bloat-stage, we go in to clean-up, make the sites 10-30 times faster by removing all of Bootstrap and other frameworks and staying really lean (use a minimal framework or a very low footprint one.) We, sometimes, end up developing the "Bootstraps" for these companies.

Re: Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

#60

Post by oelmekki »

nkkollaw wrote: post #58

I'll actually answer your question. I've been using Bootstrap 4, since it's already stable and will come out in a few months anyway, so I won't have to upgrade anytime soon. If you use libraries that depend on Bootstrap, you might want to check compatibility. I was using Bootswatch and the developer didn't upgrade the code to Bootstrap 4 until a few weeks ago. Other than that, I see no reason not to use the latest ve…

There's also an other reason to go with the "almost released" one when starting a new project: bootstrap has been historically painful to migrate.

Upgrading major bootstrap version means changing class names in whole codebase (like the classes for grid system), changing html code for some components which have been updated, and having to remove other components altogether and go with your own sauce because components were removed.

This has been the case for all previous major bumps, and there is no sign of it being any different this time, so better save a migration and go straight with bs-4.

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