Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports • Hacker News Board

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#231

Post by jsjohnst » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

tbagman wrote: post #180

pash wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ports are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, which I believe by definition means they are USB 3.1 ports as well. But some devices out in the world have USB-C ports that are not Thunderbolt 3 compatible. No longer can you tell what sort of devices will work with a port by its physical shape. For instance, I have a Windows desktop machine with a single USB-C port on the back, but it's not a Thunderbolt 3 port. So while I c…

> If you can plug it in, it will work Unfortunately, this hasn't been my experience. As an example, I have a display-port-based Apple cinema display, and I bought this adapter to try to connect it to a new macbook pro 15": http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL2AM/A/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-to-thunderbolt-2-adapter The physical size of the connectors are compatible, of course; you can plug the monitor into the thunderbolt…

The confusion is that most people don't understand how USB, TB2/3, and DP work (not saying they should either!).

TB3 is an "alternate mode" signaling over USB-C. As such, every TB3 port is a USB-C port, but not every USB-C port is a TB3 port. Same goes for DisplayPort over TB2. Every TB2 "native" port allows DP, but not every DP port does TB2. TB3 doesn't however carry DP signaling as before though because a cable is either TB3 over USB-C, or DP over USB-C, not both. TB3 and DP both use the "same" alternate-mode signaling. This was my only complaint with the 12" rMB, having only one port, you couldn't plug in a hub, then hub to monitor, because the hub wouldn't kick in the alternate mode signaling required. This required the monitor to always be first device. Now with the rMBP having multiple ports, not a problem anymore.

As mentioned before, USB-C also has an alternate mode for DisplayPort. That's how your LG 27UD88 (fantastic monitor btw!) gets the monitor signal. Buying a TB3 to TB2 adapter is the wrong way to adddress hooking up a DP monitor, despite it being a semi-logical conclusion for even most tech geeks. The right combo is to get a USB-C to DP adapter.

I don't know what the USB-IF folks were thinking, but clearly we need some of whatever they were smoking as this is going to be a mess for years to come i bet.

As to your last point about 60W vs 85W USB-PD, technically you are very correct, but in real life not exactly. The distinction comes to play with how hard you are working the machine. If CPU/GPU are maxed, you'll drain a little battery, but under normal load you'll see a very very slow charge. Same thing happened before with Magsafe2 when you used a 65W power cord on a 15" MBP (that normally used an 85W adapter).

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#232

Post by SyneRyder » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

pash wrote: post #170

spilk wrote: post #135

Honestly to me the worst thing about the new MacBook Pro isn't that there are no legacy ports on it or that the battery may be smaller, it's that the new all-things-for-all-people ports it has are confusing. The ports are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, which I believe by definition means they are USB 3.1 ports as well. But some devices out in the world have USB-C ports that are not Thunderbolt 3 compatible. No longer can y…

> The ports are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, which I believe by definition means they are USB 3.1 ports as well. But some devices out in the world have USB-C ports that are not Thunderbolt 3 compatible. No longer can you tell what sort of devices will work with a port by its physical shape. For instance, I have a Windows desktop machine with a single USB-C port on the back, but it's not a Thunderbolt 3 port. So while I c…

Not entirely true, as the 2016 MacBook Pro disables/blocks some Thunderbolt 3 devices that haven't been Apple-certified (apparently including any device that uses a Texas Instruments TPS65982 USB-C chip):

https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/03/2016-macbook-pro-thunderbolt-...

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#233

Post by dep_b » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

alberth wrote: post #75

71.8 watt-hour: 2013 13" MacBook Pro [1] 49.2 watt-hour: 2016 13" MacBook Pro Touch [2] Why are so many people surprised that the battery life went down from ~10 hours down to ~7 hours? When the physical battery size is only ~70% of the previous model, it's no surprise the new MacBook Pro only gets ~7 hours of battery life. [1] https://support.apple.com/kb/sp691?locale=en_US [2] http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs…

Raw battery specs are meaningless when the underlying hardware and software is different. Battery specs on iPhones look pretty bad too compared to a lot of Android phones, real world performance is a different thing.

Intel has been working on more power efficient CPU's more than faster CPU's the last years. Same goes for RAM. I guess Apple did the same on the software side.

I still think something isn't completely like the engineers wanted it to be if I look at the way the batteries are fitted inside the chassis. And I am happy I am in a position to skip this year's version because I expect there will be an improved model that will deal with a lot of these smaller issues that weren't fixed in time before Christmas.

But I don't think there's a dramatic decrease in real world performance at all. Just that with a better battery design it would clearly improve instead.

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#234

Post by srssays » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

slantyyz wrote: post #204

rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really disconcerting thing here is that this is the first macbook in 10 years to be a major regression on key points. Since the first Intel macbook, Apple has focused on core competencies: good touchpad, good screen, good battery life. Every generation got consistently better on those dimensions. PC vendors will do stuff like ship a great touchpad one generation and a shit one the next, but you could generally co…

The problem is that reducing thickness is a selling point/feature for a lot of people on Apple products, but the compromises made in exchange for thinness cause problems for people who don't value thinness over other things. Having said that, it's important to note that CR did not give the Macbook Pro a Recommended badge (think of it as the equivalent to "Editor's Choice"), it doesn't mean they're telling people not…

> The problem is that reducing thickness is a selling point/feature for a lot of people on Apple

It's the Peter Principle for laptops. Laptops are made thinner and thinner, which is always an improvement, until the point when they no longer function properly.

Fundamentally, people expect a certain amount of travel in their keyboard for comfort, and long enough battery life. Apple made a big mistake thinking these were mere "nice things to have".

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#235

Post by spilk » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

pash wrote: post #170

spilk wrote: post #135

Honestly to me the worst thing about the new MacBook Pro isn't that there are no legacy ports on it or that the battery may be smaller, it's that the new all-things-for-all-people ports it has are confusing. The ports are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, which I believe by definition means they are USB 3.1 ports as well. But some devices out in the world have USB-C ports that are not Thunderbolt 3 compatible. No longer can y…

> The ports are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, which I believe by definition means they are USB 3.1 ports as well. But some devices out in the world have USB-C ports that are not Thunderbolt 3 compatible. No longer can you tell what sort of devices will work with a port by its physical shape. For instance, I have a Windows desktop machine with a single USB-C port on the back, but it's not a Thunderbolt 3 port. So while I c…

This is pretty demonstrably false. I have a USB-C port on my Windows machine and I just plugged in a TB3->TB2 adapter, then plugged a TB ethernet adapter into that. Windows machine pops up an error when plugging it in, no new devices appear in the device manager, etc. It will not "just work" when your USB-C ports are not Thunderbolt ports.

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#236

Post by davidf18 » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

pcl wrote: post #148

mmjaa wrote: post #19

I've had mine for a week now, and have been able to use it alongside my late-2014 rMBP, which has been a solid workhorse. I'm starting to notice very subtle preferences for the 2017 model creeping in - after an hour of typing, for example, going back to the old keyboard feels really, really inefficient and antiquated, and my typing rate is lower than on the new rMBP. I also really enjoy the Touchbar - it hasn't been…

In my experience, spotlight re-indexing mostly happens if you run out of disk space and the OS decides to drop spotlights caches in favor of swap space. If you keep an eye on the size of your swap files (in the /var/vm dir), you can see when things go nuts and take corrective action before the index gets whacked.

IMHO, this is a "bug" because if you are running on battery, the indexing is a problem and it is also a problem if you are using spotlight. Is there an option to ensure that the spotlight cache is not deleted?

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#237

Post by phil21 » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

0x09 wrote: post #155

spilk wrote: post #135

Honestly to me the worst thing about the new MacBook Pro isn't that there are no legacy ports on it or that the battery may be smaller, it's that the new all-things-for-all-people ports it has are confusing. The ports are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, which I believe by definition means they are USB 3.1 ports as well. But some devices out in the world have USB-C ports that are not Thunderbolt 3 compatible. No longer can y…

I've gotten myself into a stupid situation where I have purchased something like 4 adapters that don't accomplish what I thought they would when I bought them. USB-C to DisplayPort -> DisplayPort to HDMI -> Monitor - doesn't work USB-C to DisplayPort -> DisplayPort to DVI-D -> Monitor - doesn't work USB-C to Ethernet - doesn't work I'm actually planning to just go to Best Buy today and try to find anything that will…

I found a USB-C -> HDMI -> DVI-D -> monitor works for that situation. But the HDMI adapter matters. Some Dell adapters we had laying around the office are what worked for me here, but it was flakey (plug in multiple times - plug in multiple monitors in the correct order).

If your monitor supports Displayport then that is the route you want to use. The MBP 2016 supports USB-C displayport alternate mode, and quality cables exist. This is pretty much bulletproof if it's an option to you.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EZH7CKO/ are the cables I bought since they were available next-day, but Monoprice also makes a quality cable.

http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/30/2016-macbook-pro-usb-cth... is also a great resource to get started, if you haven't seen it yet.

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#238

Post by baddox » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

RandomOpinion wrote: post #138

mmjaa wrote: post #19

I've had mine for a week now, and have been able to use it alongside my late-2014 rMBP, which has been a solid workhorse. I'm starting to notice very subtle preferences for the 2017 model creeping in - after an hour of typing, for example, going back to the old keyboard feels really, really inefficient and antiquated, and my typing rate is lower than on the new rMBP. I also really enjoy the Touchbar - it hasn't been…

> binding ESCAPE to Caps Lock has been an acceptable re-configuration for me as a vim user I've seen a lot of people say this but I dunno. I'm kind of leery of doing something that would cause me to develop problematic muscle memory when typing on normal keyboards, e.g. on other people's machines. I have enough trouble flipping between Mac and Windows keyboard shortcuts already.

I used to think the same thing until I analyzed how often I actually type on other people's machines. For me it's extremely rare, maybe once a month, and even then I'm rarely coding or doing anything that requires decent muscle memory.

I still probably wouldn't want to switch to another keyboard layout like Dvorak, but even that is more because of my personal learning curve and less about using other people's computers.

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#239

Post by phil21 » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #184

0x09 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gotten myself into a stupid situation where I have purchased something like 4 adapters that don't accomplish what I thought they would when I bought them. USB-C to DisplayPort -> DisplayPort to HDMI -> Monitor - doesn't work USB-C to DisplayPort -> DisplayPort to DVI-D -> Monitor - doesn't work USB-C to Ethernet - doesn't work I'm actually planning to just go to Best Buy today and try to find anything that will…

You can't expect an off-brand USB-C adapter to be able to fully support DisplayPort. USB-C does not natively contain DisplayPort. Also, don't daisy-chain adapters when you don't have to. Use a USB-C to HDMI adapter. Such as this one: http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-av...

This is poor advice. I have that exact adapter, and it fails to work with >50% of the HDMI devices (monitors, TVs, projectors) in our office.

This is kind of the point. I have to carry this, plus an offbrand HDMI adapter to hope to have greater than 50% chances of it working.

As far as I'm aware there is no reliable USB-C -> HDMI adapter on the market that works with the MBP 2016. If there is another someone knows about, I'd be happy to buy one for testing and let folks know the results.

Re: Newest MacBook Pro is the first MacBook not recommended by Consumer Reports

#240

Post by timemachiner » Fri, Dec 23, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #177

timemachiner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doing to do more intensive programming on mine in the coming days after Christmas and see what hours I get. If dissatisfied I'll return it by Jan 8th for a full refund. I need an all day programming machine for school. Thanks for your input on the 2015 model.

There were some refurb 2015 models I wanted last night for about 4 hours, but I wasn't in a position to order right at that moment (driving, in meetings, etc). Got home, and they're gone! :/ Will keep looking, and ebay/CL generally have some decent ones now and then too. Benchmarks between 2015 and 2016 were within 1% on geekbench for most tests, and 2016 was often the slower one. Hard to justify $1000+ more for... n…

Thanks for the feedback! I hope you get a refurb 2015 soon, sounds like they are selling out rather quickly! I have a fully spec'd out 2013 MBP 15" and the battery last at most 3 hours under an intensive programming load. The cycle count is nearing 1,000. I thought about saving money altogether by replacing the battery / backing up the data on an external hard drive and resetting it to factory. I do like the sleek design on the 2016 model and how light it is. It makes it much easier to throw in my book bag along with my other notes / books.