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Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

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Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#101

Post by untoreh »

skuzye wrote: post #48
greyman wrote: post #22

I don't know if I am too old or just think differently than vim enthusiasts, but I somehow couldn't bring myself to like vim. Of course that's might be since I can't find motivation to dig into it further. As a developer I use it almost daily when doing something on the server, like editing some config etc., but I somehow always prefer a software, where you do things intuitively without needing to first learn a short…

I've been using Emacs for years now but since I got introduced to PHPStorm I must say I won't ever use Emacs for PHP again. It's features are so addicting that I don't mind not having the shortcuts I'm used to. I was never an IDE guy but PHPStorm is just too good, so much time saved.

php in emacs is pretty lacking, I wanted to try the spacemacs layer with these additions https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/pull/3943/files but after using jetbrains ide for a while i am not really motivated :p, I wish they released an headless version to plug it in whatever editor like eclim does :(

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#102

Post by mbel »

philix001 wrote: post #93
andylei wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more momentum a project has, the more contributions it gets that's not disputed. the question is, what specific impacts do these contributions have on me, the user? why should i, a user of vim, switch to neovim?

async plugins? true color support? If you have a 32-bit color capable terminal you can use any colorscheme and get real RGB colors.

Those are very good and appealing features. Nobody questions that. On the contrary, the point is that those features are meaningful and valuable for the users. The amount of code and people used to implement them is not.

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#103

Post by [deleted] »

philix001 wrote: post #93
andylei wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more momentum a project has, the more contributions it gets that's not disputed. the question is, what specific impacts do these contributions have on me, the user? why should i, a user of vim, switch to neovim?

async plugins? true color support? If you have a 32-bit color capable terminal you can use any colorscheme and get real RGB colors.

[deleted]

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#104

Post by toonse »

Sphax wrote: post #40
owaislone wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neovim is Vim for me and many other users. Vim is irrelevant to me now. The community is rallying behind Neovim and it shows great potential. It just needs to be bundled by major distros so it can be installed on servers with 1 command and that'll be the end of old Vim. Bram has done a tremendous job with Vim but it's time to move on to the Vim of the future.

From a Windows user point of view neovim is strictly than vim 8 / gvim 8.

Yes, this. My primary work environment is Windows. Every attempt to install and successfully use neovim has been far from optimal and sometimes flat out broken. So I go back to gVim.

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#105

Post by greenspot »

akkartik wrote: post #3

Has Bram Moolenaar ever publicly acknowledged the influence of Neovim on Vim 8? At the very least, Neovim provided the market research to show that async was worth doing.

Good point. A recent upvoted post From Reddit's Vim sub [1]:

"I am super surprised that everybody talks about Vim 8 but almost nobody mentions that...

- Bram Moolenaar did the last major version ten years ago

- The recent years of Vim's development were almost stalling

- Bram publicly questioned the Neovim team's efforts creating a fork and bringing new essential stuff like async to Vim—he even made kind of fun of them

After Neovim came out and has been developed at fast pace, Bram surprisingly presents Vim 8 with the stuff we wanted which before he decided against—all the stuff Neovim did and of course incompatible to the fork.

Bram's decision on being incompatible should be challenged and discussed, would love to hear his thoughts. Since no money is involved, his decision feels even more awkward, why not welcome competition or potential contributors, being a team player, work together or merge? Or is it Bram's injured pride, the fear of getting irrelevant with some piece of ancient software?

Whatever 'meaningful reasons' Bram chose not to support a fork, now we are left with incompatible Vim variants which damage the entire Vim ecosystem. I guess that most distributions will package Vim 8 with their distributions, just because not everybody has followed all the happenings, and Vim 8 sounds like a solid choice, like going with the mainstream. So, Vim 8 might get the next standard and an awesome fork could die which I find sad. The Neovim team has been disrupting, they went ahead and it's a community developed software which is a huge differentiator to Bram's work and codebase of controversial quality.

What are your thoughts? Should we support both versions and should we write plugins for both or focus on one? Or is competition good and the Neovim team will deliver more and prove that still a community developed Neovim will outperform Vim in the long run?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a rant, Bram created with Vim an fantastic piece of software—this is about the question how we should keep competition which helps the entire ecosystem so we don't end up with a dying fork and original Vim's development slowing down again for the next ten years. One idea is that all distributions should either still package old Vim 7.x only to let people decide themselves or always package both Vim 8 and Neovim together. But how should we get there?"

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/52q4ul/about_vim_8_and...

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#106

Post by weaksauce »

greyman wrote: post #22

I don't know if I am too old or just think differently than vim enthusiasts, but I somehow couldn't bring myself to like vim. Of course that's might be since I can't find motivation to dig into it further. As a developer I use it almost daily when doing something on the server, like editing some config etc., but I somehow always prefer a software, where you do things intuitively without needing to first learn a short…

There are really good vim plugins for visual studio so it's not an either or proposition. Vim keybindings are simply a much faster way to edit code.

What's less intuitive? caw stands for change a word. This selects the word and deletes it leaving you in insert mode to type something new.

Or: ctrl left arrow, shift, ctrl right arrow, delete key.

cit stands for change inside tag (html tag) or ci" for change inside the double quotes. dit and di" work just the same and vim can be thought of as a language to work on text.

If you have a few min to spare to see why it's so powerful and not that hard to learn you can google "you don't grok vim" to get a good stackoverflow response on it.

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#107

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway88172 wrote: post #77
owaislone wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just past month and that too after Neovim lit a fire under Vim. The difference would be much bigger if you check for a period of last 2 years or so. Neovim: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/pulse/monthly Vim: https://github.com/vim/vim/pulse/monthly I don't know why people feel emotional about Vim. Neovim is just Vim with a breath of fresh air.

And gruseom seems to agree. He is ruling with an iron fist in this thread.

[deleted]

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#108

Post by mikewhy »

owaislone wrote: post #53
bagrow wrote: post #34

Anybody using a neovim MacOS app [1]? I'm a huge vim user, but mostly via MacVim [2]. [1] https://github.com/rogual/neovim-dot-app [2] https://github.com/macvim-dev/macvim

I've been very happy with neovim.app but recently switched to VimR. VimR switched to neovim some time ago. Haven't noticed any issues as compared to neovim.app. Both work pretty much the same for me as I don't use VimR's features.

Been hearing about VimR, I should really check it out.

I've used both Neovim.app and neovim-qt, but for reasons I've forgot, always end up back with MacVim.

Re: Bram Moolenaar Discusses Developing Vim, How He Uses It, and Version 8

#109

Post by sctb »

censored_again wrote: post #61

Wow, hundreds of developers and 7 newsletters!1!! has Netcraft already confirmed that Vim is obsolete?

We've banned this serial troll account. Please don't create accounts to violate the guidelines like this. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13237170 and marked it off-topic.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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