If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will • Hacker News Board

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#61

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:03 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #28

bko wrote: post #6

> In the U.S. and Canada, teachers are often underpaid—and many have quit the profession because they couldn't make a decent living Is there a source for this? I often hear similar notions lamenting the demise of US education spending but from what I can tell, the US spends more than most other countries per student. And spending has been growing in practically every respect > This graph shows that average education…

Teachers make median income of around 57k[1] in the US and that is on par with other professions with similar educational requirements despite the fact that they don't work nearly 1/4 of the year. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil...

Sorry, but my parents were both teachers. Summers are spent planning for next year. This idea that teachers get 1/4 of the year off is total fantasy.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#62

Post by nkrisc » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

hash-set wrote: post #41

brownbat wrote: post #21

The most moving and informed coverage of the US education system I've heard have all been through This American Life.[0][1][2][3] Ok, there's an easy four hours of content to listen to. Enjoy! The short takeaway for me was basically that local funding through property taxes is a terrible idea if you want anything approaching fairness. If you can afford to live in an area with high property taxes, the US school system…

Not true in MN--you can open enroll your kids in any district. You may not get the exact school you want due to demographics, but it's still a valid counter-example. By the way, why do you think wealthier people shouldn't get more advantages in life? I'm all for trying to pull people up by their bootstraps, but we can't just level everything out in some misguided attempt at 'fairness.' You will never achieve that fai…

> By the way, why do you think wealthier people shouldn't get more advantages in life?

Sure, let wealthy ADULTS have more advantages. However, children have no say in their circumstances, so I do think it is right to at least give CHILDREN equal opportunity and resources.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#63

Post by indigo_rex » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:12 PM UTC

lintiness wrote: post #60

Pharylon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the way, why do you think wealthier people shouldn't get more advantages in life? Wealthy people will always have nicer cars and better vacations and bigger houses, but that doesn't mean the children of poor people should be relegated to terrible schools where they'll have no future.

sorry, but schools are a lot less important than families.

They're both important, and one could argue that schools are more important to children with less supportive families. You also have to consider what is breaking up the families you appear to be referencing - over-policing, redlining, etc. Even if you come to the conclusion that the poor deserve everything they get (which would be a myopic conclusion), why should children suffer for the sins of their parents?

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#64

Post by Pharylon » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:13 PM UTC

lintiness wrote: post #60

Pharylon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the way, why do you think wealthier people shouldn't get more advantages in life? Wealthy people will always have nicer cars and better vacations and bigger houses, but that doesn't mean the children of poor people should be relegated to terrible schools where they'll have no future.

sorry, but schools are a lot less important than families.

It's not either/or, it's both/and. Having parents that are willing and able to be involved with their children is huge, but going to a good school is to. The top rated comment linked to a This American Life story on achievement gap and how busing poor black students to white neighborhoods in the 80s and 90s almost magically improved their scores.

Don't forget that part of being an involved parent and making sure your kids get a good education is, critically, getting them in a good school.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#65

Post by cmdrfred » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:14 PM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #56

cmdrfred wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they are required to be at school for 8 hour days year round?

More like 12-hour days while school is in session.

Not where I went to school, half an hour after the kids left the vast majority of teachers were gone.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#66

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

hash-set wrote: post #49

metaobject wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less education? Did I miss the obvious joke/sarcasm here?

I think what he/she meant is that higher education has become the new high school. What we need is a restoration of secondary school education, not "universal college degrees." That, and we need to re-value our currency in the same fashion.

Actually I meant that we should probably send fewer people to college and have fewer people graduate high school. Maybe some of them should go to trade school instead, but generally we should just reduce the quantity of education provided.

Most education seems to be wasteful; see Bryan Caplan's writings on the topic, for example.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#67

Post by athenot » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

lintiness wrote: post #60

Pharylon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the way, why do you think wealthier people shouldn't get more advantages in life? Wealthy people will always have nicer cars and better vacations and bigger houses, but that doesn't mean the children of poor people should be relegated to terrible schools where they'll have no future.

sorry, but schools are a lot less important than families.

True. And the poor have severely amputated family time due to job requirements. If both parents work a combined 3 jobs (and probably don't have the luxury of personal transportation, meaning increased transit times), how many hours are left with their children?

Yes, family education cannot be fully replaced by school instruction. But the reality for many struggling families is that they need as much help from the schools as possible.

I'm very pro-family but I take issue at the wealthy who point their fingers at struggling/broken families who haven't been dealt the same cards in life, and justifying blame by judging their lifestyle.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#68

Post by miles7 » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:18 PM UTC

phd514 wrote: post #35

brownbat wrote: post #21

The most moving and informed coverage of the US education system I've heard have all been through This American Life.[0][1][2][3] Ok, there's an easy four hours of content to listen to. Enjoy! The short takeaway for me was basically that local funding through property taxes is a terrible idea if you want anything approaching fairness. If you can afford to live in an area with high property taxes, the US school system…

The problem with that conclusion is that some of the highest-funded public schools in the country such as DC are among the worst performers. Funding is not the sole (or even most important) determinant of quality in education.

Some

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#69

Post by ashark » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #27

bko wrote: post #6

> In the U.S. and Canada, teachers are often underpaid—and many have quit the profession because they couldn't make a decent living Is there a source for this? I often hear similar notions lamenting the demise of US education spending but from what I can tell, the US spends more than most other countries per student. And spending has been growing in practically every respect > This graph shows that average education…

I always hear that lament, then I talk to my friends who are teachers. Most are in my age group (late 30s) and are making $70-85k, with summers and another month of vacation and good pension/healthcare. The only lousy benefit is that maternity leave sucks. They all are incredibly frustrated with the increasing meddling and red tape attached to federal and state funding. Half the job is paperwork nonsense, which wasn'…

More like 35K-50K for teachers here in their early to mid 30s. Mid-sized midwestern city, so the cost of housing is low, but that's still not great, especially considering that you need advanced degrees to approach the top end of that range.

Compensation varies greatly by district—typically the worst districts pay the best, but they're still undesirable for teachers because the conditions are terrible—being cursed at and threatened daily by 5th graders (no joke) and witnessing assaults gets old fast.

[EDIT] I should add that their healthcare plans tend to suck and are totally useless (1.5-2x as expensive as other options) for covering one's family, but the retirement's good. They're also better for people planning to take maternity/paternity leave than probably any other employer in the area, especially if you time it so your leave rolls over into Summer and are willing to be docked a couple weeks' pay—you can achieve near-parity with lower end of normal for parental leave in other OECD states that way! What a perk.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#70

Post by Goronmon » Tue, Dec 20, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #61

cmdrfred wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers make median income of around 57k[1] in the US and that is on par with other professions with similar educational requirements despite the fact that they don't work nearly 1/4 of the year. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil...

Sorry, but my parents were both teachers. Summers are spent planning for next year. This idea that teachers get 1/4 of the year off is total fantasy.

It's the classic problem. If they are good teachers, they spend time planning for the next year, taking/leading seminars on teaching, and looking for ways to improve themselves as educators. If they are bad teachers, I'm sure many literally do take off the summer and do little/no work.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like salaries depend on whether you are the former or the latter.