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If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

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Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#21

Post by brownbat »

The most moving and informed coverage of the US education system I've heard have all been through This American Life.[0][1][2][3]

Ok, there's an easy four hours of content to listen to. Enjoy!

The short takeaway for me was basically that local funding through property taxes is a terrible idea if you want anything approaching fairness.

If you can afford to live in an area with high property taxes, the US school system is great, your kids probably go to a great school. If you are struggling to get by, though, living in an apartment? Your kids are usually banned from going to that same great school by law.

It's like anti-literacy laws were too obvious, so we just made them more byzantine.

[0] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/t...

[1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/563/t...

[2] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/h...

Significantly, on how redlining contributed to the achievement gap. The heartbreaking story of why a girl who wants to go to school down the road is turned away.

[3] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a...

A description of another poor high school where the kids basically have recess, lunch, or permanent substitutes all day, because it's failed by local control.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#22

Post by yummyfajitas »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #3

It continues to amaze me that the US is so unambitious in this regard. Donald Trump on education: http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Donald_Trump_Education.htm His solution? School choice, competition. Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education.

Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education.

You mean have lots of Asian and white students but not so many black ones? Unfortunately it would be kind of racist to do that. Trump is hoping to come up with a plan that helps all Americans, rather than simply excluding the underperforming ones from the stats.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150525165748/http://super-econ...

(Archive search is down, but search archive also for this URL: https://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abo... )

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#23

Post by altcognito »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #22
spiderfarmer wrote: post #3

It continues to amaze me that the US is so unambitious in this regard. Donald Trump on education: http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Donald_Trump_Education.htm His solution? School choice, competition. Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education.

Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education. You mean have lots of Asian and white students but not so many black ones? Unfortunately it would be kind of racist to do that. Trump is hoping to come up with a plan that helps all Americans, rather than simply excluding the underperforming ones from the stats. https://web.archive.org/web/20150525165748/http://super-econ... (Ar…

It is fair to have doubts that charter schools will be regulated enough and held accountable by a guy who was largely elected on "getting rid of all that red tape".

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2014/06/22/mi...

When we turn children and education into a commodity, the problem is not going to get better. The system will be turned into a cost center for the country, and we'll get what we deserve per the usual.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#24

Post by qntty »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #22
spiderfarmer wrote: post #3

It continues to amaze me that the US is so unambitious in this regard. Donald Trump on education: http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Donald_Trump_Education.htm His solution? School choice, competition. Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education.

Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education. You mean have lots of Asian and white students but not so many black ones? Unfortunately it would be kind of racist to do that. Trump is hoping to come up with a plan that helps all Americans, rather than simply excluding the underperforming ones from the stats. https://web.archive.org/web/20150525165748/http://super-econ... (Ar…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#25

Post by noonespecial »

superplussed wrote: post #4
Pilfer wrote: post #2

For anyone wondering what VIPKid lessons look like, here is a sample demo of one from their Youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it5fb0KlUjU

It's interesting how overly animated he is given that the student is not a child, but you can tell that she is pulled in by all of that energy. But if you look at other videos you'll see that most teachers are a little more contained (and maybe sane-seeming): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swc0RTrxjpw The one thing, I saw that in their teacher training they aim for a 70/30 ratio of student to teacher speech and I ha…

>It's interesting how overly animated he is given that the student is not a child

Absolutely don't knock this. I teach robotics and tech part time to middle schoolers and if there's one thing that has helped me connect more than any other its being a living cartoon. Exaggerate everything. You should be half-way to full clown when lecturing or you're simply not getting through.

To prep for lessons, I don't study circuits, I watch CN. I'm a 40yo man who quotes Rick and Morty and can name all of the Crystal Gems. But it works like crazy.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#26

Post by yummyfajitas »

qntty wrote: post #24
yummyfajitas wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely ignoring what the 25 countries do that rank higher when it comes to education. You mean have lots of Asian and white students but not so many black ones? Unfortunately it would be kind of racist to do that. Trump is hoping to come up with a plan that helps all Americans, rather than simply excluding the underperforming ones from the stats. https://web.archive.org/web/20150525165748/http://super-econ... (Ar…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

I understand the parent poster believes that educational techniques are the primary driver of educational performance. I don't think he was suggesting adopting Singaporean demographics.

My phrasing was a snarky way of pointing out that educational techniques don't seem to matter very much, that's all.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#27

Post by Spooky23 »

bko wrote: post #6

> In the U.S. and Canada, teachers are often underpaid—and many have quit the profession because they couldn't make a decent living Is there a source for this? I often hear similar notions lamenting the demise of US education spending but from what I can tell, the US spends more than most other countries per student. And spending has been growing in practically every respect > This graph shows that average education…

I always hear that lament, then I talk to my friends who are teachers.

Most are in my age group (late 30s) and are making $70-85k, with summers and another month of vacation and good pension/healthcare. The only lousy benefit is that maternity leave sucks.

They all are incredibly frustrated with the increasing meddling and red tape attached to federal and state funding. Half the job is paperwork nonsense, which wasn't true even a decade ago.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#28

Post by cmdrfred »

bko wrote: post #6

> In the U.S. and Canada, teachers are often underpaid—and many have quit the profession because they couldn't make a decent living Is there a source for this? I often hear similar notions lamenting the demise of US education spending but from what I can tell, the US spends more than most other countries per student. And spending has been growing in practically every respect > This graph shows that average education…

Teachers make median income of around 57k[1] in the US and that is on par with other professions with similar educational requirements despite the fact that they don't work nearly 1/4 of the year.

[1]https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil...

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#29

Post by the-dude »

humanrebar wrote: post #14
the-dude wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was telling that in 'Breaking Bad' the chemistry teacher needs a second job at a carwash. And nobody seems surprised or finds it odd.

He had extra expenses due to having a special needs son. His wife was pregnant and presumably not working at the time. Also, they probably had too nice of a house if they had those other financial pressures. Their biggest financial problem was probably their impulse to overspend on big ticket items "because my family is worth it". If I recall correctly, his wife pressures Walter to go to an oncologist that wasn't on…

He was already at the carwash before his cancer was diagnosed. From an American perspective your points may seem reasonable.

I think in The Netherlands there is no teacher to be found having a second job in the service sector just for the money.

Re: If the U.S. Won't Pay Its Teachers, China Will

#30

Post by Spooky23 »

tremon wrote: post #11
bko wrote: post #6

> In the U.S. and Canada, teachers are often underpaid—and many have quit the profession because they couldn't make a decent living Is there a source for this? I often hear similar notions lamenting the demise of US education spending but from what I can tell, the US spends more than most other countries per student. And spending has been growing in practically every respect > This graph shows that average education…

I often hear similar notions lamenting the demise of US education spending but from what I can tell, the US spends more than most other countries per student Spending is not the same as teacher pay. See [1] for a source: There was a time when it — literally — paid to be a teacher. Unfortunately, that was 60 years ago. In 1940 the average male employee with four or more years of college who did not teach K–12 earned 3…

That's a passage that needs to be read and parsed very carefully.

Comparing depression era college educated male salaries to the modern workforce is apples and oranges. There were very few college graduates in those days -- and most were teachers. Other professions like law, engineering etc were struggling due to the depresssion.

The modern passage is even more weasel worded. You need the worksheet used to calculate to figure out what that actually means.

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