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A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

nytimes.com

101–110 of 156 posts

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#101

I had over $5,000 worth of stuff stolen from my garage (also in SF) a few weeks ago. The police were not concerned in the least. I had cameras, documenting the entire thing with clear faces; it doesn't matter. Unless you're caught red handed or something, you can basically steal whatever you want in SF. It almost makes me want to turn into a thief myself (if I know I can get away with it), except there's that little…

Why do you feel that the police were not concerned? And what did you expect them to do?

To be fair, there is not much they can do for individual cases but burglary rings are broken all the time by police. They usually consist of several addicts orchestrated by a stolen-goods broker selling to one or more pawn shops or craigslist.

You images may be used in the future to snatch the perpetrator(s).

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I see no war on ladders. Have you tried to buy a large ladder lately? They come covered in so many warning stickers you'd think you were buying pesticide. Snowmobiles come with fewer warnings.

You are comparing the invasion of afganistan with warning stickers, just clarifying.

And what an enlightening comparison it is.

Whilst one has had significantly more resources spent on it than the other, you do have to wonder - would spending the same on ladders make much difference? Is the ladder safety market saturated and the invading foreign nations not?

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The driver was prohibited, by law, from kicking the passenger out mid-trip That would really surprise me. And he certainly could have declined the subsequent hailings.

Indeed, that doesn't make sense. You're witnessing probable criminal activity, and aiding it by providing the ride which could make you an accomplice once you were aware of the activity. What law could possibly prohibit you from reporting this or leaving the passenger behind? EDIT: Looking it up I'm not finding anything except stories of Uber drivers kicking people out mid-ride. Perhaps a particular municipality has…

Because by the time "law" enters into the picture, the driver will have been booted by Uber, the thief will have been released from jail and already started on his next stack of credit cards and being driven by another Uber driver.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#104

Growing up in the UK and living in the US has given me the odd distinction of being strongly against online surveillance of private space, and strongly in favor of regulated visual surveillance of public space. CCTV surveillance can protect the people I care about (especially women at night) from horrible violent crimes I'm actually scared of. It's surveillance of public space, so the privacy compromise seems kind of…

It absolutely cannot "protect the people [you] care about". It may, perhaps, lead to apprehension after the fact.

Wrong, and a news story this week proves it. I can't find the link but there was a known sex offender who had served his sentence. A woman was walking home alone late at night so someone monitoring public CCTV decided to follow her via the cameras. They then saw the sex offender approach and begin verbally harassing her. Police were called and got there before things got more serious.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#105
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent r.e. safety concerns though. It's a cheap, easy way to provide a relatively sure record of truth for public spaces. It helps prosecute people who enact violent or other crimes, and reduces the number of those in the first place. Do you disagree with that, or value being invisible in public higher?

I agree that more authoritarianism leads to less crimes. This is a well-known fact. But at what cost? Historically, we have been through all this before. Notice that it's never just the cameras. You also have to make it illegal for me to hide from them. No face camouflage, for example. And even if you don't make it illegal, you will immediately single me out and pay close attention to me. Not in the old sense of havi…

There's plenty of spontaneity, randomness and street-level interaction occurring in the cities of the UK. I see this every day. I don't think CCTV is stopping this.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with businesses having CCTV inside their premises -- as long as this is clearly advertised, so that I can decide if I'm ok with it or not. But I don't think they have the right to point the camera to the public space outside and film me without my consent. Cameras are a tool of authoritarianism because they tell you in no uncertain terms that someone is watching. Pointing a camera at a space changes…

>Cameras are a tool of authoritarianism because they tell you in no uncertain terms that someone is watching. Pointing a camera at a space changes how people behave in it. Not really? I don't look for cameras and I legit don't see them pretty much anywhere. I know they're in all the tube stations, but it doesn't make me wary? I'm sure cameras mean you're less likely to do things which are not allowed - but guess what…

> until then I'll keep enjoying lower crime rates

Unless you live in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Japan, or Singapore, it's unlikely you'll have lower crime rates than Germany.

Yet, Germany has close to no surveillance of public spaces, at all, as private surveillance of public space is banned, and public surveillance of public space is very strictly regulated.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#107
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of CCTV isn't government-run. Some is, like local parks or whatever, but most is run by businesses who want to be able to catch folks who have broken in. In order to get access to the footage, police generally need a warrant. I guess I disagree that "camera == authoritarian", but I totally get your concerns. I'd be more worried about the secret courts(US) and super-injunctions(England) that mean we can't talk ab…

I have no problem with businesses having CCTV inside their premises -- as long as this is clearly advertised, so that I can decide if I'm ok with it or not. But I don't think they have the right to point the camera to the public space outside and film me without my consent. Cameras are a tool of authoritarianism because they tell you in no uncertain terms that someone is watching. Pointing a camera at a space changes…

[deleted]

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with businesses having CCTV inside their premises -- as long as this is clearly advertised, so that I can decide if I'm ok with it or not. But I don't think they have the right to point the camera to the public space outside and film me without my consent. Cameras are a tool of authoritarianism because they tell you in no uncertain terms that someone is watching. Pointing a camera at a space changes…

>Cameras are a tool of authoritarianism because they tell you in no uncertain terms that someone is watching. Pointing a camera at a space changes how people behave in it. Not really? I don't look for cameras and I legit don't see them pretty much anywhere. I know they're in all the tube stations, but it doesn't make me wary? I'm sure cameras mean you're less likely to do things which are not allowed - but guess what…

> Not really? I don't look for cameras and I legit don't see them pretty much anywhere. I know they're in all the tube stations, but it doesn't make me wary?

Are you saying or are you asking?

> I'm sure cameras mean you're less likely to do things which are not allowed - but guess what, I actually would rather have less vandalism, less assault, etc etc.

Yes, and you are also less likely to do things that are allowed, but that could still harm you depending on who's watching. Kiss your girlfriend. Do a silly dance. Participate in that protest. Use that t-shirt with the political message. Hold hands with your gay lover. The public space changes when you point a camera at it.

Don't worry too much about arguing with me -- I will lose this argument. Every day that passes, fewer people will remember what a world without constant monitoring looked like. You can't miss what you never experienced.

> Now if you want to straw man and say "well they can make anything illegal and use the cameras against you" - well sure.

A strawman is when you attack a claim that was not actually made by your opponent. Maybe the expression you are looking for is "slippery slope"?

> Come back to me when they do that,

"They" have already done that over and over in analogous historical situations. I can show them to you, but you will probably just say that I am exaggerating and that this is a different situation. Just as people did back then.

> until then I'll keep enjoying lower crime rates.

Crime rates have been going down for decades, long before all this new tech. The perception of crime rates has been going up, because of many things including the lowering standards of journalism. I live in a very safe big city where CCTV cameras are mostly illegal.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think modern airports are a good prototype for the sort of dystopian environments we can expect in the future. It will only get worse until the entire thing collapses, as it always does -- Stasi, McCarthyism, Gestapo, you name it. This time it's more scary because the technology is sci-fi compared to the previous iterations. I am more and more convinced that the cyberpunk guys got it right in terms of predicti…

[ Apologies for off-topic ] As a relatively new cyberpunk fan, let me give you a few points: (1) Cyberpunk is very much about being realistic about human nature. Some of us (like me) assume malice by default. You might not believe me but I get saddened every time I am proven right. This is coming from a 36-year old programmer supporting his mother and girlfriend. (2) We don't assume altruism by default because (2.1)…

Thanks for that. Can you suggest some additional reading?

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#110
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ Apologies for off-topic ] As a relatively new cyberpunk fan, let me give you a few points: (1) Cyberpunk is very much about being realistic about human nature. Some of us (like me) assume malice by default. You might not believe me but I get saddened every time I am proven right. This is coming from a 36-year old programmer supporting his mother and girlfriend. (2) We don't assume altruism by default because (2.1)…

Thanks for that. Can you suggest some additional reading?

Apologies, not yet (correction: see my edit in the parent comment). It's a newfound "love" of mine only for 2-3 months now (and I am a busy guy). I am just getting immersed in the art and short comics aspect for now. I haven't gone to reading the Blade Runner fanfics just yet. ;)

FWIW, Tumblr and DeviantArt have a lot of art and fanfic work in the cyberpunk genre. Pinterest too, to a lesser extent. You should start there.

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