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A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

nytimes.com

11–20 of 156 posts

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#11
Growing up in the UK and living in the US has given me the odd distinction of being strongly against online surveillance of private space, and strongly in favor of regulated visual surveillance of public space.

CCTV surveillance can protect the people I care about (especially women at night) from horrible violent crimes I'm actually scared of. It's surveillance of public space, so the privacy compromise seems kind of moot (though uses of the footage should be strongly regulated). It makes policing violent and petty crime extremely cheap and effective (ask anyone who's ever won or lost a fight outside a pub). CCTV makes me feel safe. It has utility.

On the Internet by contrast, the privacy trade-off (my thoughts, political opinions, contacts, location, in real-time) is extremely large, and the benefits largely hypothetical, and at least some part smoke and mirrors.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#12
post #6
post #5

The difficulty of enforcing the law is actually a useful part of our overall system because it provides a check-and-balance against the overeager enforcement of bad laws. Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. Yes, it becomes annoying when criminals get away with things they reall…

I don't totally agree with that. A law should either be enforced close to 100% of the time (with exceptions at the discretion of a court), or 0% of the time (ie. the law should not exist). If jay walking, pot smoking, or anti-sodemy laws are not really enforced, to me that's a sign that they should be taken off the books. In an over-legislated society, we should focus on having strong core legislations that everyone…

What about something like speeding?

Let's say we get rid of speeding laws since they're not 100% enforced. Should we have unregulated driving? Move towards a law that simply says "no driving unsafely"?

IMO those are both poor ideas—they're either unsafe or vague and subjective. I don't see a way around having well-defined speeding laws, yet there are plenty of situations where it's silly to ticket an individual who's going 5+ MPH over the posted limit.

I just don't see a win-win scenario.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#13
post #6
post #5

The difficulty of enforcing the law is actually a useful part of our overall system because it provides a check-and-balance against the overeager enforcement of bad laws. Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. Yes, it becomes annoying when criminals get away with things they reall…

I don't totally agree with that. A law should either be enforced close to 100% of the time (with exceptions at the discretion of a court), or 0% of the time (ie. the law should not exist). If jay walking, pot smoking, or anti-sodemy laws are not really enforced, to me that's a sign that they should be taken off the books. In an over-legislated society, we should focus on having strong core legislations that everyone…

Sure, in theory. But I see two problems with that--although they're probably the same idea.

Judicial, executive, and legislative are decent abstractions. They're fairly slow to change. Executive is probably the easiest to react to public opinion--which isn't necessarily something you'd want in the other two branches. It can repurpose old laws for new problems and can focus on immediate, concerning issues--thankfully, with oversight.

Breaking a law is binary, but public opinion can move gradually (I know I just said it can move quickly, but it can also move very slowly). Anti-sodomy laws were enacted (I imagine) when there was a lot of support. There was a very long time between that and the public accepting homosexuality. Yes, in the interim we can have judicial leniency--but that clogs up the courts and we do have mandatory minimums in many laws.

There's also weird in between laws, like a Ft Lauderdale law saying horses need lights and a horn after sundown. Makes total sense because it's dangerous. At some point it likely was a huge problem and it was happening often. But it's nice to give officers leniency if I got lost on a trail or my horse got out without having to go to court.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#14

An Uber driver told me about the time he picked up a credit-card thief. The guy just asked to be driven around (in his SUV) from one side of New York to the other. As the fare ended, he'd hail the driver with a new credit card and start a new one. At one point, he stopped at a house and walked out with a new stack of cards. The driver [EDIT: said he] was prohibited, by law, from kicking the passenger out mid-trip. Ri…

> The driver was prohibited, by law, from kicking the passenger out mid-trip That would really surprise me. And he certainly could have declined the subsequent hailings.

Indeed, that doesn't make sense. You're witnessing probable criminal activity, and aiding it by providing the ride which could make you an accomplice once you were aware of the activity.

What law could possibly prohibit you from reporting this or leaving the passenger behind?

EDIT: Looking it up I'm not finding anything except stories of Uber drivers kicking people out mid-ride. Perhaps a particular municipality has a more specific regulation? There are lots of reasons to kick passengers out, and criminal activity is #1 (perhaps tied with "they're about to puke/piss in my car because they're so wasted").

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#15
post #3

This is selective enforcement, not equality under the law. I understand the load police tend to be under, but I really wish they would have some lottery enforcement style that grabbed one random instance of "common" crime like this at a time, and went whole-hog with it. They do it for speeding, so they can make a bit of money with fines, and have the hope of finding connected crimes; what's different about theft like…

Would you consider the idea that if someone has murdered, they are more likely to murder again (compared to those who never have) an example of "pre-crime"?

You're getting a rare down vote from me because this is such an obvious straw man. At least pretend to try to understand his point.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#16

This is selective enforcement, not equality under the law. I understand the load police tend to be under, but I really wish they would have some lottery enforcement style that grabbed one random instance of "common" crime like this at a time, and went whole-hog with it. They do it for speeding, so they can make a bit of money with fines, and have the hope of finding connected crimes; what's different about theft like…

It's really the automatic aggregation and query-able database that is an issue, not the data itself. Like, it doesn't really matter if I'm seen walking into an adult store. It does matter if someone can look up the names, addresses, and employers of everyone who walked into an adult store. Or if someone could make a list of everywhere I've been photographed going in the last year and construct narratives based off of that.

Getting that sort of information about people and places needs to be expensive in order to protect people from casual violation of their privacy.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't totally agree with that. A law should either be enforced close to 100% of the time (with exceptions at the discretion of a court), or 0% of the time (ie. the law should not exist). If jay walking, pot smoking, or anti-sodemy laws are not really enforced, to me that's a sign that they should be taken off the books. In an over-legislated society, we should focus on having strong core legislations that everyone…

What about something like speeding? Let's say we get rid of speeding laws since they're not 100% enforced. Should we have unregulated driving? Move towards a law that simply says "no driving unsafely"? IMO those are both poor ideas—they're either unsafe or vague and subjective. I don't see a way around having well-defined speeding laws, yet there are plenty of situations where it's silly to ticket an individual who's…

[deleted]

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#18
> After two visits and three calls to the Mission district station, and three calls and two emails with San Francisco Police Department public affairs (a route not open to most civilians), the police assigned someone to my case. That was well over a month after the theft. Walgreens gave them some video, which has been circulated, but Target had already junked its footage.

OK, it sounds like someone did some substantial work. They got video from one source, and queried another, and then did something with the video.

> Uber, which over its four rides obtained route information and the person’s address, was not contacted.

And yet, the investigator didn't request data from Uber, which apparently learned the suspect's address. I wonder what's up with that? Do they consider it too unreliable? Something akin to hearsay? Or maybe they don't want to violate the suspect's privacy? Very strange.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#19
post #5

The difficulty of enforcing the law is actually a useful part of our overall system because it provides a check-and-balance against the overeager enforcement of bad laws. Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. Yes, it becomes annoying when criminals get away with things they reall…

Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit.

I'm probably being naive, but I think having rules that are universally enforced would be much better than our current approach of selective enforcement. I'd expect that as soon as those with power to change the law are negatively affected by poorly written laws, those laws would soon be changed.

Should jaywalking itself always be illegal? No, it should depend on whether there is an actual danger and the degree to which it impedes traffic. A more sane law would differentiate between calmly crossing at midnight on an empty street and causing an accident by darting into busy traffic.

Should it be illegal to exceed the posted speed limit? I think so, otherwise why not just have "advisory speeds"? Rather than making it illegal to exceed a speed that drivers are expected to exceed and then enforcing selectively, a firmly enforced limit seems much saner. If the goal is fuel efficiency, then legislate that directly. If the goal is safety, then "reasonable and prudent" seems sufficient.

like stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family

I think this is better dealt with at the penalty phase than by selective prosecution. I feel the owner of the lost loaf of bread should have the right to prosecute or not prosecute entirely at their discretion, but once the police are involved I think they should be required enforce the law and leave the discretion to the judge. It it would seem terribly unfair to the property owner for the police on the scene to summarily decide that the theft was justified and the shop owner must absorb the loss.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#20
post #9

Its funny how the Left (i.e. the NYT) suddenly realizes, now that their gang isn't in power, that maybe mass surveillance wasn't such a good idea after all.

I assume everyone understands a large portion of mass survellience boomed under Bush after 9/11 starting with FISA [0] and continuing under Bush......and will continue to grow under every future president considering there is very little push against it except a minority of people who value their privacy (my opinion), blaming either side is a bit silly.

I am a millenial and I consistently observe many of my peers who do not work in IT having the attitude "I have nothing to hide they can collect whatever they want on me" an attitude spawning from Zuckerberg pointing out people will not care about their privacy in the future[1]...turns out he is mostly right

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance...

[1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/6966628/Faceb...

EDIT: typos...on phone

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