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A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

nytimes.com

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Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#41

Post by iamleppert »

I had over $5,000 worth of stuff stolen from my garage (also in SF) a few weeks ago. The police were not concerned in the least. I had cameras, documenting the entire thing with clear faces; it doesn't matter.

Unless you're caught red handed or something, you can basically steal whatever you want in SF. It almost makes me want to turn into a thief myself (if I know I can get away with it), except there's that little thing that my parents saddled me with called morality.

I'd feel too bad afterwards, although sometimes I wish I wouldn't. There's something to be said about just taking whatever the hell you want in this life.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#42

Post by arikrak »

lisper wrote: post #5

The difficulty of enforcing the law is actually a useful part of our overall system because it provides a check-and-balance against the overeager enforcement of bad laws. Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. Yes, it becomes annoying when criminals get away with things they reall…

If they always caught people speeding, they could lower the fine so it became more like a tax. The penalties for some crimes could be lowered as well if perpetrators were usually caught.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#43

Post by morgante »

confounded wrote: post #11

Growing up in the UK and living in the US has given me the odd distinction of being strongly against online surveillance of private space, and strongly in favor of regulated visual surveillance of public space. CCTV surveillance can protect the people I care about (especially women at night) from horrible violent crimes I'm actually scared of. It's surveillance of public space, so the privacy compromise seems kind of…

I definitely share your views.

If I'm in public, I by definition should not expect privacy.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#45

Post by anexprogrammer »

confounded wrote: post #11

Growing up in the UK and living in the US has given me the odd distinction of being strongly against online surveillance of private space, and strongly in favor of regulated visual surveillance of public space. CCTV surveillance can protect the people I care about (especially women at night) from horrible violent crimes I'm actually scared of. It's surveillance of public space, so the privacy compromise seems kind of…

Probably mainly smoke and mirrors. I've lost count of the number of UK stories where some terrorist or criminal was known to authorities, or already on a watch list. They never manage to catch or prevent despite all these huge surveillance programmes. Then the news almost inevitably follows up that they've found out there were public exchanges of messages on Twitter 2 days before the incident or some such.

It would be comical were it not for people dying.

My take is it's utterly irrelevant. The chance, even with Daish and current events, of dying in a terrorist attack are less than by falling off a ladder. Something like 20 times less. It's firmly down there with the silly and odd causes of death. I see no war on ladders.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#46

Post by nradov »

iamleppert wrote: post #41

I had over $5,000 worth of stuff stolen from my garage (also in SF) a few weeks ago. The police were not concerned in the least. I had cameras, documenting the entire thing with clear faces; it doesn't matter. Unless you're caught red handed or something, you can basically steal whatever you want in SF. It almost makes me want to turn into a thief myself (if I know I can get away with it), except there's that little…

It really depends on where you are. In some smaller cities near SF such as Campbell or Los Gatos the police absolutely take residential burglaries seriously. They have closed a number of cases recently based partially on surveillance camera footage.

I'm surprised that SF residents are willing to put up with this crap. Why don't they stand up and demand better service from their city government? Perhaps it's an example of learned helplessness.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#47

Post by sandworm101 »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #45
confounded wrote: post #11

Growing up in the UK and living in the US has given me the odd distinction of being strongly against online surveillance of private space, and strongly in favor of regulated visual surveillance of public space. CCTV surveillance can protect the people I care about (especially women at night) from horrible violent crimes I'm actually scared of. It's surveillance of public space, so the privacy compromise seems kind of…

Probably mainly smoke and mirrors. I've lost count of the number of UK stories where some terrorist or criminal was known to authorities, or already on a watch list. They never manage to catch or prevent despite all these huge surveillance programmes. Then the news almost inevitably follows up that they've found out there were public exchanges of messages on Twitter 2 days before the incident or some such. It would b…

>> I see no war on ladders.

Have you tried to buy a large ladder lately? They come covered in so many warning stickers you'd think you were buying pesticide. Snowmobiles come with fewer warnings.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#48

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc »

nkurz wrote: post #19
lisper wrote: post #5

The difficulty of enforcing the law is actually a useful part of our overall system because it provides a check-and-balance against the overeager enforcement of bad laws. Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. Yes, it becomes annoying when criminals get away with things they reall…

Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. I'm probably being naive, but I think having rules that are universally enforced would be much better than our current approach of selective enforcement. I'd expect that as soon as those with power to change the law are negatively affected by…

You're extremely naive.

The US and its individual states have a litany of laws on the books. There are so many that I can get sure every person breaks at least one law everyday, gay people in particular. It's sad but most laws do not get repealed.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#49

Post by taneq »

lisper wrote: post #5

The difficulty of enforcing the law is actually a useful part of our overall system because it provides a check-and-balance against the overeager enforcement of bad laws. Imagine a world where ubiquitous automated cameras sent you a ticket every time you jaywalked, or if your car automatically reported you every time you exceeded the speed limit. Yes, it becomes annoying when criminals get away with things they reall…

True, as things currently stand, but this is a misfeature of the system rather than an advantage. The combination of unreasonable nuisance laws with the lack of enforcement means the nuisance caused by the laws is largely mitigated, but it still leaves them open to abuse through selective enforcement.

If "laws that everybody breaks" were ubiquitously enforced then their true detriment would be brought to light and they'd have to be properly fixed.

Re: A World of Surveillance Doesn’t Always Help to Catch a Thief

#50

Post by tn13 »

confounded wrote: post #11

Growing up in the UK and living in the US has given me the odd distinction of being strongly against online surveillance of private space, and strongly in favor of regulated visual surveillance of public space. CCTV surveillance can protect the people I care about (especially women at night) from horrible violent crimes I'm actually scared of. It's surveillance of public space, so the privacy compromise seems kind of…

Nah! Any comparison between UK and USA on law enforcement is completely way off the mark. USA is far too diverse and the range of crime far too wide for visual surveillance of public spaces to be common.

To be honest UK police are complete rubbish. They are corrupt and far to cowardly. Large crimes are pushed under the carpet simply because cops do not have the courage to take up the baddies. It takes years for the London cops admit widespread sexual exploitation of young girls by Pakistani gangs. London tend to have no-go streets and their are Sharia courts on the streets of London. I am not sure what UK cops do looking at the footage of white girls harassed on street for wearing a skirt.

American cops use excessive force yet I think they overall do a significantly better job of defending people.

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