Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#351

Post by jerkstate » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

loulouxiv wrote: post #343

jerkstate wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rents go down when demand goes down. I've lived in the bay area through two booms and busts now and rent was higher in 2000 than it was in 2003, and higher in 2007 than it was in 2009. When you project a local experiment to an entire country, don't forget that a concept similar to UBI known as "communism" has been tried before in the USSR, China, Cuba, and a few other countries, with limited success and many downside…

Well in fact there is no clear ressemblance with communism. Communism primary principle is that all the means of production are state owned, and everyone is therefore salaried by the state, earning as much as everyone else with no oncentive to work more and or better. Basic income aims to the contrary, by helping businesses to offer more flexible work contracts (part-time, temporary work, ...) and potentially lower w…

"earn more for producing less economic output" is not capitalist. you can't simply change the meaning of words to fit your agenda and convince anyone but the extremely gullible.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#352

Post by Fnoord » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #317

JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I'm from Poland, where recently the government introduced a "500+" program, which means that every family in the country receives 500PLN per month, per child, from the day they are born to the time when they are 18 year old. Now, my parents run a company which mostly has physical workers - and for a physical worker, in the "poorer" part of the country, 1500PLN/per month(after taxes) is an ok salary. The day the 500+…

> The day the 500+ program started, several employees left, literally saying that they have 3-4 children, so by just getting the money from the government they will be better off than working and they don't need a job anymore. They are all jobless and living off 500+ as far as I know.

Yeah, yeah... I know that kind of story.

This isn't the complete picture. You are presenting anecdotal evidence, and omitting important details. Some important details you are ommiting:

1A) For the job you provide, is the QoL of the work low compared to the wage and potential health hazard(s)? This seems to be the easiest counterpoint to your entire argument. You also lack statistical relevance. 1B) You omit the question wether those workers were easily replaced. If yes, what type of income & benefits did those people receive? If no, why not?

Aside from that one:

2) Which other social benefits exist in Poland?

3) Are these affected by child support benefits?

4) How exactly do the various tax systems work in Poland?

5) Are/were they performing unreported work?

> I would say that's a pretty good indication what will happen with UBI - I'm sure there's loads of people who wouldn't leave their jobs because they like having more money(me included) but for a lot of people if free money is enough to get by then that's what they are going to live on.

Do you have children yourself? Children are a huge joy, but also a huge burden. It is a living hell to both work, and also have children. What some people with good wage do is work full time, both, and have child caretaker(s). Those are going to be employed.

There's also the problem that unskilled work in the West is in decline. I don't know if that is true for Poland though.

And there is the notion that you either work full time, or you don't work at all. Why these extremes? With 3-4 children you are overburdened by them, and it'd be an option for one of the parents to not work full time.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#353

Post by misja111 » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

mrottenkolber wrote: post #347

misja111 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that many of them will use their free time to make another couple of kids and raise their income with another 1000.

If the question would have been "what would you do?", would your answer have been the same? If not, why do you think little of us other humans?

These people quit their jobs because they were happy with their child benefits of 500 per child. This given fact, that they quit there jobs, makes me suspect that they would rather choose the strategy of increasing their salary by their number of kids than by working.

If the question would have been 'what would you do', I think I would have quit my factory job as well, actually.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#354

Post by conanbatt » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #251

conanbatt wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres something uneasy about 2 people doing the same job at the same gross salary, but different net salaries.

Uneasy to you maybe. If the immigrant has it worse not coming to the land of free money and jobs (even if they're not getting the free money), they're still better off than not coming. Separately, in a way we already have that uneven net for the same work. If you work two jobs you get paid less (net) than one person doing either of your jobs (for that job, not total). That's what's what a progressive tax does.

> Uneasy to you maybe. If the immigrant has it worse not coming to the land of free money and jobs (even if they're not getting the free money), they're still better off than not coming.

Its a market distortion that could create all kinds of problems.

You could argue that's discrimination( there are equal pay and equal wages laws around employment).

You would not be allowing immigrants from doing a wide range of jobs that are desirable (and hence pay less) and 'condemn' them to do the worse jobs that pay more. So for example, immigrants will be less represented in arts, journalism, administrative work. Low paying jobs in general will not be living wages without UBI. Think that minimum wage is likely to drop considerable if you have UBI.

It undoubtedly creates an "US vs them" gap measurable in money.

> Separately, in a way we already have that uneven net for the same work. If you work two jobs you get paid less (net) than one person doing either of your jobs (for that job, not total). That's what's what a progressive tax does.

UBI is very likely not going to apply to most workers, maybe minimum wage and down. You dont really need much of a minimum wage if you have an UBI, which means many pleasent low skill jobs would pay very little (clerical work for example). So immigrants would be barred from such jobs without UBI.

Also its true that taxes make 2 people get different net income but that comes from their wealth, not their nationality. Someone with a house and a mortgage might get more income than an immigrant that has nothing. That makes it a regressive tax (the immigrant pays taxes that goes to the richer guy).

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#355

Post by thomasfl » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

    Voters in Switzerland recently rejected a basic-income scheme

I can't understand why the Swiss politicians wanted to ask the general public for a permission to do an experiment. How can the Swiss population be sure universal basic income will not work when no nation has yet implemented it yet across the whole population?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#356

Post by douche » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #354

koolba wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uneasy to you maybe. If the immigrant has it worse not coming to the land of free money and jobs (even if they're not getting the free money), they're still better off than not coming. Separately, in a way we already have that uneven net for the same work. If you work two jobs you get paid less (net) than one person doing either of your jobs (for that job, not total). That's what's what a progressive tax does.

> Uneasy to you maybe. If the immigrant has it worse not coming to the land of free money and jobs (even if they're not getting the free money), they're still better off than not coming. Its a market distortion that could create all kinds of problems. You could argue that's discrimination( there are equal pay and equal wages laws around employment). You would not be allowing immigrants from doing a wide range of jobs…

I'm curious in what universe clerical work is considered pleasant?

In a world with UBI, I'd be very tempted to pack it in and go do some rewarding, enjoyable manual labor, like farming or forestry or carpentry or improving hiking trails.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#357

Post by sidlls » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

misja111 wrote: post #353

mrottenkolber wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the question would have been "what would you do?", would your answer have been the same? If not, why do you think little of us other humans?

These people quit their jobs because they were happy with their child benefits of 500 per child. This given fact, that they quit there jobs, makes me suspect that they would rather choose the strategy of increasing their salary by their number of kids than by working. If the question would have been 'what would you do', I think I would have quit my factory job as well, actually.

That isn't a reasonable inferrence from their actions. All one might conclude is that they find their current income sufficient.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#358

Post by nkrisc » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #317

JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I'm from Poland, where recently the government introduced a "500+" program, which means that every family in the country receives 500PLN per month, per child, from the day they are born to the time when they are 18 year old. Now, my parents run a company which mostly has physical workers - and for a physical worker, in the "poorer" part of the country, 1500PLN/per month(after taxes) is an ok salary. The day the 500+…

Doesn't that open jobs for people who don't have kids or still need work?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#359

Post by douche » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #317

JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I'm from Poland, where recently the government introduced a "500+" program, which means that every family in the country receives 500PLN per month, per child, from the day they are born to the time when they are 18 year old. Now, my parents run a company which mostly has physical workers - and for a physical worker, in the "poorer" part of the country, 1500PLN/per month(after taxes) is an ok salary. The day the 500+…

In a world where childcare costs for 2-3 children can swallow up the lion's share of a full-time salary, I'm in no way surprised that there would be some who can do the calculus and realize that getting paid to stay home and take care of their own kids might be a better deal than working hard to earn money to pay someone else to watch their kids.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#360

Post by virmundi » Sun, Dec 18, 2016, 4:20 PM UTC

oceante wrote: post #239

TheProbabilist wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm positive that this answer won't be appetizing if you belong to the dyed in the wool, coastal progressive contingent, heavily represented here on HN. Given the recent political developments (not just here in the U.S. but across the world including Europe), it is high time we speak frankly and not say things couched in vain pleasantries, suited to people who'd rather not hear or say anything disagreeable, to keep u…

Your comment is distinctly American. The rest of the world is perfectly happy with universal healthcare, strong social safety nets, and "handouts" to children. How do you think Brexit was sold to the British? Do you realize that the Brexiters (and all the European nativists) have been selling their agenda primarily on the basis that it would mean more handouts? America is different. And we all know what that differen…

I don't think that this is due to "fear that the 'wrong people' will benefit". I think the fear is that such programs will sap our will to improve. We fear becoming European. We fear becoming docile wards of the state. Keep in mind that everyone in the US descends from people that decided that the risk of exposure, wolves and bears was more tolerable than staying with their peers.

We now stand at a crossroads unseen by past humanity: unnecessary man. How do we deal with the fact that a portion of our population, perhaps even half, is quickly becoming a millstone about society's neck? Ideas like UBI are our first attempt to deal humanly. Soon we'll probably add to UBI voluntary sterilization or other population controls. How will we collectively in the West solve this? Burdening our State coffers by maintaining useless populations might not be the best thing.