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Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

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Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#31

Post by notatoad »

freen wrote: post #29
thereisnospork wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not exactly the same, wouldn't the children/grandchildren of lottery winners/successful entrepreneurs/old money provide a reasonable proxy? People having been 'gifted' allowances/trust funds over a few generations is hardly unprecedented in modern history.

No, because they are a substantial abberation from the norm, which is essential to what the BGI attempts to achieve.

from that perspective wouldn't any trial of basic income then be invalid, because the trial participants are a significant abberation from the norm?

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#33

Post by Uhhrrr »

home_boi wrote: post #22

There would need to be at least ~50-60 years before evaluation of the results There needs to be at least 2 generations that have had UBI for their entire life. UBI affects the motivation to work on skills, so the subject would need UBI for their entire life. The parents of the subject also needs to have UBI for their entire life because the parents could transmit the scarcity, pre-UBI mindset onto the subject. There…

It might take 50-60 years to declare it an unvarnished success, but it could take a very short amount of time to declare it a failure.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#34

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

robertelder wrote: post #24
home_boi wrote: post #22

There would need to be at least ~50-60 years before evaluation of the results There needs to be at least 2 generations that have had UBI for their entire life. UBI affects the motivation to work on skills, so the subject would need UBI for their entire life. The parents of the subject also needs to have UBI for their entire life because the parents could transmit the scarcity, pre-UBI mindset onto the subject. There…

I came to the same conclusion when thinking about this too. It might even make sense to counsel people too about what they can do with the extra time/money. There are a lot of amazing things to do in the world, but most people will always try to emulate their immediate environment. For some people, I would expect they would end up getting hooked on something unwholesome (drugs for example) with their newfound free ti…

> hooked on something unwholesome (drugs for example) with their newfound free time

Based on what the "Rat Park" studies show about the natures of addiction, that seems very unlikely: People get addicted when their lives suck, not when they have free time.

Having money enough to eat is going to go a long way to making peoples' lives suck less.

Not to say that helping people direct their energies wouldn't be useful. It may take a few months of vacation or longer before people can recover enough drive to do anything with their time that they can make themselves do anything other than relax. When you've spent your life being told what to do and driving yourself with fear of losing your job, it may take months or even years of recovery before you can be self-motivated effectively. Telling them that too might be useful.

I think the government should offer "jobs" that don't add a huge amount of money over the basic income, but that provide some public good, to help people who are just terminally uncreative direct their time, but should also offer free education in how to start their own businesses for those who do want to create something, build something, or provide a service. Or alternately they could learn new professions in their now-free time and get higher paying jobs.

So yes, I agree with your conclusion (education and guidance is important). Just not the reasoning that got you there. :)

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#35

Post by aangjie »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #33
home_boi wrote: post #22

There would need to be at least ~50-60 years before evaluation of the results There needs to be at least 2 generations that have had UBI for their entire life. UBI affects the motivation to work on skills, so the subject would need UBI for their entire life. The parents of the subject also needs to have UBI for their entire life because the parents could transmit the scarcity, pre-UBI mindset onto the subject. There…

It might take 50-60 years to declare it an unvarnished success, but it could take a very short amount of time to declare it a failure.

Err... No.. There could be long-term effects.. If you take a very short time to declare it a failure, have you tested the long-term effects at all? (For ex: Like the OP mentioned, have accounted for scarcity mindset being communicated by the parent to child effect?).

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#36

Post by _andromeda_ »

sama wrote: post #17

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

Egalitarianism always collapses on itself. The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers (who are often indolent actors) is horrible. Many many experiments have been conducted and all failed miserably leading to the suffering and death of millions. I mean, Soviet farmers usually opted to kill their livestock as opposed to having government take it and redistribute it equitably. We don't need to go through that again. These notions should be nipped at the bud.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#37

Post by solipsism »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #36
sama wrote: post #17

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

Egalitarianism always collapses on itself. The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers (who are often indolent actors) is horrible. Many many experiments have been conducted and all failed miserably leading to the suffering and death of millions. I mean, Soviet farmers usually opted to kill their livestock as opposed to having government take it and redistr…

Nonsense. There are social programs that have been incredibly successful. And pointing to the USSR is a shameful strawman.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#38

Post by labster »

_andromeda_ wrote: post #36
sama wrote: post #17

We've started giving money to a small pilot group. We're still working out the kinks but expanding it slowly. The plan is still to run the pilot until we're confident everything is working well (especially with issues like making sure no one loses eligibility for income-based benefits) and then start the full-scale study.

Egalitarianism always collapses on itself. The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers (who are often indolent actors) is horrible. Many many experiments have been conducted and all failed miserably leading to the suffering and death of millions. I mean, Soviet farmers usually opted to kill their livestock as opposed to having government take it and redistr…

s/Egalitarianism/Authoritarianism/

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#39

Post by labster »

cookiecaper wrote: post #27
anondon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the status of the MOOC? When can we expect additional details? YC should consider writing the occasional blog post about the projects it's working, it would be interesting to follow and the feedback from HN might be useful.

Would YC really be upfront about the success or failure of this experiment? Most people are shy enough about failures in professional contexts where impacts are isolated to the company itself. The outcome of this pilot has real potential political ramifications, further disincentivizing those who're committed to basic income (as YC obviously is) from revealing any serious flaws or difficulties experienced, beyond the…

I'd expect them to report accurately. You have to remember, the expected result of a startup is failure, so they're used to dealing with that. I don't see why this would be any different.

Re: Ask YC: Any Updates on the Basic Income Project?

#40

Post by _andromeda_ »

solipsism wrote: post #37
_andromeda_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Egalitarianism always collapses on itself. The incentive structure that is created when you take resources from producers to award to non-producers (who are often indolent actors) is horrible. Many many experiments have been conducted and all failed miserably leading to the suffering and death of millions. I mean, Soviet farmers usually opted to kill their livestock as opposed to having government take it and redistr…

Nonsense. There are social programs that have been incredibly successful. And pointing to the USSR is a shameful strawman.

Are you arguing against basic human nature? For the vast majority of people, if they don't have to work in order to earn, most people will choose not to work. So then who supports these folks? The people who put in actual graft. But the question is, for how long? Is this sustainable.

This is a mindset and it must be fought against vehemently. You want to help people? Advocate for the following:

- hard work as opposed to indolence

- savings culture as opposed to consumption of capital goods

- innovation/engagement as opposed to being dullards

- celebrating and rewarding achievement based on genuine merit as opposed to cuddling our young ones

- skill acquisition by reading books as opposed to watching TV and partying

You want a utopia but none of the sacrifice required to attain it. That's not going to work.

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