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Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#61

Post by ScottBurson »

TillE wrote: post #14
ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Means-tested programs are the epitome of wasteful government bureaucracy. It's never the right way to "compromise". If we can't sell straight UBI, then something like universal food stamps would be a good first step: https://web.archive.org/web/20160321083817/http://mattbrueni...

I'm not necessarily opposed to means-testing; for example, progressive income tax rates can be seen as a form of means-testing, and I think they're a good thing.

What I care about is that the function from income earned to income (including subsidy) received be monotonic. Again, the income tax system (at least in the US) is carefully designed to have this property: when you make enough more money to move into a higher tax bracket, that higher rate is applied only to the amount of your income in excess of the lower bound at which that bracket applies. So the total amount of tax never jumps discontinuously, even though the marginal rate increases. Even though you keep less of your next dollar of earnings the more you make, there's never a point at which earning the next dollar will leave you with less money after tax.

The same should be true even if you're receiving a subsidy. That's all I'm saying.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#62

Post by protomyth »

Already__Taken wrote: post #52
zhemao wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically a negative income tax. That is, if you make below a certain amount, the government gives you money until your income reaches some base level.

Does that have any negatives that basic income doesn't? To me it sounds like a direct subset of that UBI aims to achieve. So a solid stepping stone towards it.

I support a prorated version, but the common criticism is that it's more open to fraud and harder to implement. I still think a prorated[1], guaranteed minimum income is better than a basic income.

1) something like reducing that payment by $0.50 per $1 earned as an example.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#63

Post by dmurray »

sqrt wrote: post #55
ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

I'm interested in hearing why it's a bad thing to disincentivize working more. Is it so bad for someone to not be working should they have enough money to live on? (I'm not sure if the benefits in this specific case are enough to live on, but I guess I'm thinking about the general principle.)

People working X hours a week are guaranteed to be spending those X hours producing something useful to society, or at least to their employer. People not working are not.

Sure, some people who are not employed may be raising children or volunteering or doing something else beneficial to society,and encouraging them to work instead would be society's loss. But if we trust in the market economy, those people don't exist, and our real loss is people who are unproductive while on welfare who would be productive given a minimum wage job.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#64

Post by revelation »

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

If you are not unemployed, why would you receive unemployment benefits?

The problem with this particular restriction is jobs that don't pay sufficiently, have wildly varying hours or are pretend part-time to stay under some benefits threshold. The solution can not be subsidize exploitative employers who don't provide a livable wage through UB. These jobs are a net cost to society and plain should not exist.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#65

Post by kgwgk »

zzalpha wrote: post #40
applecore wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone will receive the difference between what they make and what UBI guarantees. This isn't UBI either. UBI would simply give everyone the same income without subtracting the difference for extra earned income. You could earn millions and still receive your basic income.

As you define it. I define UBI as having a floor on people's income, where the government ensures everyone is above that floor. So it's universally ensuring everyone had a basic income.

Your definition is not the usual one, I think.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

http://basicincome.org/basic-income/faq/#income

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#66

Post by ScottBurson »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #17
ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Is there any data backing up the idea that it actually is a disincentive? 1. Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again. 2. In the UK, unless things have changed, you can work up to 16 hours per week while receiving unemployment benefits and I believe the benefits you receive gradually falls with the amount of work you get paid for. 3. If you suddenly lose you…

> Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again.

All the more reason not to discourage them by having them come out financially worse for doing so.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#67

Post by protomyth »

acbabis wrote: post #48
ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #9

Will Finland admit publicly when it fails or will they just hide their idea as if it never happened? Remember Bio-Fuel? How progressive and wonderful it was suppose to be? Until it caused a global food shortage and suddenly none of the media ever talked about it again.

Global food shortage? If you're talking about ethanol from corn, that doesn't sound correct. Corn-based foods are dirt cheap

Yep, the current prices of commodities are pretty low to the point it was a campaign issue in farm country.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#69

Post by thenomad »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #17
ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Is there any data backing up the idea that it actually is a disincentive? 1. Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again. 2. In the UK, unless things have changed, you can work up to 16 hours per week while receiving unemployment benefits and I believe the benefits you receive gradually falls with the amount of work you get paid for. 3. If you suddenly lose you…

In the UK I have known multiple people who were unable to take jobs that would have brought them out of unemployment, because of precisely this trap.

Can't recall the specifics but they were not stupid people and I believe they'd done the math correctly.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#70

Post by cwiggs »

kr7 wrote: post #27
nickff wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's probably better than just instituting a program and hoping it works. Ideally, all government programs should be subject to measurement and re-evaluation.

The choice does not have to be between "do a bad study" or "do no study at all". A proper study would be permanent and self-contained. Participants would need to give a portion of outside income to the program to simulate higher taxes and/or inflation.

You mention make the UBI be permanent so, how long would you expect to wait until the results would be worth looking at, an entire generation?
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