Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 413 posts

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#21

Post by Jarwain »

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

It might be some implicit bias that I have, but I read that as minus, or without, penalties for amassing extra income. As in there are no penalties for amassing extra income. There is a double negative in there. I'm trying to find a more authoritative source on whether this is the case

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#22

Post by Jarwain »

JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

They're calling it Basic Income, not Universal Basic Income. The goal being to see what the differences are between the unemployed and the control group.

There may be other issues baked into the implementation, but it will be hard to say the result until it goes into action and we start getting data

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#23

Post by stale2002 »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #17
ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Is there any data backing up the idea that it actually is a disincentive? 1. Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again. 2. In the UK, unless things have changed, you can work up to 16 hours per week while receiving unemployment benefits and I believe the benefits you receive gradually falls with the amount of work you get paid for. 3. If you suddenly lose you…

I mean, if I was offered half of my current salary (which is, admittedly high, as a software engineer) for free under the condition that I don't work, I'd totally take that deal.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#24

Post by iopq »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #17
ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Is there any data backing up the idea that it actually is a disincentive? 1. Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again. 2. In the UK, unless things have changed, you can work up to 16 hours per week while receiving unemployment benefits and I believe the benefits you receive gradually falls with the amount of work you get paid for. 3. If you suddenly lose you…

> 1. Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again.

My father makes so much money that when he's unemployed he actually doesn't really look for a job that urgently. This is because his unemployment benefits are enough for him to pay the bills. He'd like to make money to retire... but he does rest for a few months in between jobs.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#25

Post by iopq »

stale2002 wrote: post #23
k-mcgrady wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any data backing up the idea that it actually is a disincentive? 1. Anyone I know that has received benefits for being unemployed desperately wants to be employed again. 2. In the UK, unless things have changed, you can work up to 16 hours per week while receiving unemployment benefits and I believe the benefits you receive gradually falls with the amount of work you get paid for. 3. If you suddenly lose you…

I mean, if I was offered half of my current salary (which is, admittedly high, as a software engineer) for free under the condition that I don't work, I'd totally take that deal.

And you can, if you get fired.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#26

Post by ultraforce »

ScottBurson wrote: post #5

Jobless people generally cannot earn additional income while collecting unemployment benefits or they risk losing that assistance. Worst. Idea. Ever. I know -- it's a common feature of income support systems, including here in the US. I don't know whether UBI is going to prove workable or not. But even if it doesn't, if we could just redesign the systems we do have so they never give recipients a disincentive to work…

Would it be possible to do a modified system where they instead of losing the universal income unemployment benefits. There could be a system where the benefits are lowered in proportion to the income earned from jobs, that allows for those who are able to and want to work but are only able to find low paying jobs to have benefits that do not discourage them from doing work.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#27

Post by kr7 »

nickff wrote: post #8
kr7 wrote: post #6

Another limited duration trial (two years). What's the point? It's not going to measure the real effect. People will know it is going to run out and behave differently than if it was permanent.

Well it's probably better than just instituting a program and hoping it works. Ideally, all government programs should be subject to measurement and re-evaluation.

The choice does not have to be between "do a bad study" or "do no study at all".

A proper study would be permanent and self-contained. Participants would need to give a portion of outside income to the program to simulate higher taxes and/or inflation.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#29

Post by edblarney »

noonespecial wrote: post #11

>It will give them benefits automatically, absent bureaucratic hassle and minus penalties for amassing extra income. That last part is huge. A disincentive to work by cancelling benefits is a feature of nearly every current system. It is extremely important that someone test a system without this in it to see how a people react. This looks like a very important test for the viability of UBI.

These programs depend at very least on the 'savings' government will incur by not having 'massive bureaucracies' to manage the program.

The problem is - Government Unions are the most powerful in every state, and they will never, ever allow any significant layoff of personnel.

So you get a 'new program' without the most important stated benefit.

The reality of government, is that it is systematically inefficient because of entrenched labour practices - no just because they 'may not be good and doing some thing'.

I love public transport.

In Toronto - we still have people at every station selling tickets and making change. 17 of them were on the 'sunshine' list last year as earning over $100K in the year. You read that right: the guys in the booth making over $100K. Granted, this is with 'overtime', but probably not more than many people in the private sector work.

So the government can't help put pay many of it's entities wages that are quite above normal, with massive add-ons and incentives.

Given that small tidbit - can you fathom why it's so gosh-darn expensive to add public transit services???

There are a few other fairly fundamental problems with the program as well, first being simply the cost (Ontario government that is 'pro' program said it would cost $175 Billion a year, basically our whole budget) - and then the moral/incentive issue: where I live in Montreal everybody is an 'artist' 'photographer' 'cinematographer' 'choreographer' 'dancer' 'writer'. But they all work in coffee shops and restaurants. Montreal would go bankrupt instantly because the 'cinematographer' that makes my latte in the morning will quit instantly. In my community - there is absolutely no sense of 'industriousness' in the Anglo sense - they see no problem with fussing about making quite bad films that nobody wants to watch. Were there some latent amazing output I might think it's a good tradeoff, but no, they're seasoned amateurs.

In a rational and sensible society ... this program would be amazing. But then, in a rational and sensible society, there would be very low unemployment, and streamlined government so that the 'means testing' issue would be moot.

It might work in some specific places.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#30

Post by edblarney »

JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

I agree with that statement.

But a detail: it will not be 'streamlined'. Those government workers are not going anywhere.

It's worth an experiment, though.

Post reply on HN