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Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#71
post #44
post #13

There is so much negativity around Java that I wonder why anyone starting on their journey to becoming a programmer would want to learn it or work with it.

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses" -- Bjarne Stroustrup [1], Creator of C++ [1] http://www.stroustrup.com/bs_faq.html#really-say-that

On a more serious note, Java's "reputation" is because:

- It was kind of the Golang of the 90s, where each class had a clear and limited purpose -- but it also meant you had to chain three or five classes together to get anything useful done [1]. For this and other reasons, like the longtime lack of type inference, earned it a reputation for verbosity.

- Most people don't have a clue how to design software, so they turned to outside resources for ideas. The 1994 book 'Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software' [2] introduced a lot of useful models on how to translate mental models into object-oriented code. Some systems sprawled too much to where their implementations started to look like this model gone horribly wrong, while some developers merely ingested these ideas as a dogma and went on to produce code that was needlessly complex and poorly thought-out.

- At some point a bunch of licensed code originating from a venture of IBM was dumped into the JDK, hence the awful, miserable mess that was datetime and calendaring [3] before Joda-Time's Stephen Colebourne brought sanity to it with Java 8.

- Applets were punching above their weight, but the tech was poorly implemented, and, as history proved with it and other plugins like Flash, woefully insecure. Vulnerabilities in Java Applets, and early public confusion about Javascript vs. Java perpetuated the stereotype that Java itself was broken, insecure, or both.

- Consultancies are big business, and companies like IBM, Oracle, and SAP would happily sell shops on big application servers with monitoring and control panels and genuinely useful stuff, but also tons of cruft and bugs. These players emerged from the J2EE spec, which defined useful APIs but intentionally left the implementation unspecified, to cultivate a thriving community of alternative implementations. Predictably, this didn't go as hoped.

- People are obsessed with customizing their software, so vendor-delivered products were built with externalized configurations. Some people took this way too far, resulting in the familiar nightmare [4] where you had to configure mounds upon mounds of XML or .properties files to get an application running. It didn't help that this was actually the better way of getting it done in Java, with the Spring Framework, which was way more palatable to work with than the alternatives coming out of the J2EE spec.

- Rails shook the world at the end of 2005 and showed that the obsession with configuration was dumb [5]. Scrambling, both Spring and EJB received rewrites, so now Java devs @hardcoded things directly into the source code with @annotations (that are by the way "not code!", as if that distinction was at all relevant) and pretended they were enlightened.

- Sun had a vision for Java that they were never truly able to execute. In the process, they delivered a pretty solid language, eventually backed by a fantastic VM [6], that became popular because it was simple and scaled down well to okay and decent programmers -- not requiring a fleet of expensive rockstars. Oracle smelled money and bought it up, and despite additional innovation still being delivered by its staff, created wariness and distrust in the Java community by its corporate attitude.

[1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4716503/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns [3] https://java.net/nonav/projects/jsr-310/lists/dev/archive/20... [4] http://thedailywtf.com/articles/Soft_Coding [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12761705 [6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12160439

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#72
I wonder how it looks to courts that Oracle, thus far, has strategically singled out Google?

If Oracle does not show a concerted effort to protect their copyright from all who are "infringing", does that help delegitimize their case against Google?

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he means in jest that people have constantly talked about Stallman's quirks that are honestly gross but shouldn't take away from what he says regarding technology.

His "quirks" are what harms his message. The same could be said for his long-time collaborator ESR who has some quirks that are beyond eating shit from his feet. You want a spokesperson for something they better be worthy of respect. That's their primary function. It's not being a sage of truth. People listen to those they respect, and his behaviour at times is so out of line that he spends more time destroying his c…

> You want a spokesperson for something they better be worthy of respect.

You want people talking with the spokesperson be rather worthy of being treated respectfully by the spokesperson. People who put the medium (Stallman) above the message clearly aren't.

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#74
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you think it would happen if Oracle just made OpenJDK offline, withdraw its developers or even nastier changes to OpenJDK (left to imagination)? Which of those listed companies would try to keep OpenJDK alive and drive the JEPs?

There are many examples of projects maintained by a cooperative effort between multiple corporations.

Yet none of those companies cared enough for Java to save Sun, why would they do it then?

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#75
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently people keep forgetting who pays the majority of OpenJDK developers.

Or people simply want to avoid installing the proprietary software that is bundled with Oracle JDK. With the added benefit of running the same JDK on your dev machine and on your servers.

Which leads to the interesting situation that not all Java GUI applications run properly in GNU/Linux with OpenJDK, forcing companies like JetBrains to bundle their own fork for those not willing to install Oracle JVM or another third party vendor.

Because actually OpenJDK isn't 100% 1:1 to the closed source versions.

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#76
post #24
post #4

Are there still any reasons why one should choose Java instead of .Net for new developments?

There are many, many more good libraries for Java in Maven Central than for .NET in Nuget. OS independence, if not quite platform independence, has informed much of those libraries' development. Maven, love it or hate it, can do a staggering number of things, some of them very useful. JAX-RS servers and clients are more robust IME on Java. (Just try to find a capable path+querystring builder for .NET.) JDBC is still…

> JDBC is still the gold standard for database connectivity.

The funny thing about that statement is that it's both true and insanely sad. JDBC is downright terrible but having a standard DB access layer has contributed a lot to Java's rise over the years.

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he means in jest that people have constantly talked about Stallman's quirks that are honestly gross but shouldn't take away from what he says regarding technology.

His "quirks" are what harms his message. The same could be said for his long-time collaborator ESR who has some quirks that are beyond eating shit from his feet. You want a spokesperson for something they better be worthy of respect. That's their primary function. It's not being a sage of truth. People listen to those they respect, and his behaviour at times is so out of line that he spends more time destroying his c…

The thing is that I don't see Stallman as the PR arm of FL/OSS. He's just a more notable contributor and advocate. And that doesn't always mean you get someone who's slick and sharp. Besides, you have Brendan Eich (despite my own issues with his politics, he's a damn good advocate for a free web) so it's not like Stallman is the end all be all of free software advocates.

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many examples of projects maintained by a cooperative effort between multiple corporations.

Yet none of those companies cared enough for Java to save Sun, why would they do it then?

You can care as much as you want: If you don't have the money to save them, you will be of no use.

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#79

For anyone on Windows willing to switch to OpenJDK, there are builds from - Azul: http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ - RedHat: https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/overview/ - JetBrains: https://bintray.com/jetbrains/intellij-jdk

It's a shame Azul doesn't make their custom silicon anymore...

Re: Oracle finally targets Java non-payers six years after plucking Sun

#80
post #78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet none of those companies cared enough for Java to save Sun, why would they do it then?

You can care as much as you want: If you don't have the money to save them, you will be of no use.

Which means most likely they will just look elsewhere.

RedHat is now supporting .NET, IBM made J9 modular for other languages like PHP, Ruby and Python, additionally improving Swift on GNU/Linux.

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