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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#391

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

edblarney wrote: post #390
edblarney wrote: post #181

"there was no harassment according to legal definition. " He's extremely lucky. In Canada, and in a growing number of jurisdictions - there is 'harassment' so long as the victim feels as if there was. If a girl feels harassed - then that's it. Guilty. It's a deep breach of our fundamental rights, in that crimes should be determined objectively, and not subject to the whims and feelings of a victim. Obviously, this is…

For context, I looked up a summary of the US law (and it's complicated, there's a lot of dense material) but here is a succinct definition: "Although harassing conduct must be objectively viewed as creating a hostile work environment to be unlawful, the subjective perception of the particular harassed employee is still significant. If the employee does not perceive the work environment to be hostile because of that c…

You are way overthinking this bordering on absurd paranoia. If you make a blonde joke once and someone says "hey, I don't like being teased about that" then you're not going to face any legal consequences. If you persist in the jokes after that point, you might.

It's not that complicated to not be a jerk.

I'd also gently suggest to reread your post and consider how slanted your characterizations are. Do you know the people involved? I've met some of them. Many of the people directly involved would strongly disagree with you.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#392

Post by tptacek »

jasonlotito wrote: post #126
pmlnr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But does it target everyone _equally_ ? LOL, wat? Each and every case is unique, there is no equal in this. I even gave an example, which has happened to me, to friends, to my wife equally...

> which has happened to me, to friends, to my wife equally... I assume your lying to try and prove a point. Unless you back this up with evidence, one should safely assume you are lying. I don't like doing this, but as someone once said: there are people out there who lie. Especially these days, with the problems of fake news, it's easy to get suspicious.

You can't comment like this on HN, and by this point you should know that.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#394

Post by xor1 »

scoreponok wrote: post #287

I was sympathetic to her plight up until the 'personal impact' part. It seems to me that the author is using hyperbole when describing her physical/emotional impact on herself and her family to gain some form of sympathy from her audience. With statements like this: >This strife has shattered all of our lives like nothing else before. Based on this statement it seems to me the author and her family have yet to face a…

The first thing I think of when I hear or read about anyone who is extremely emotionally sensitive is that they might have Borderline Personality Disorder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorde...

>People with BPD feel emotions more easily, more deeply, and longer than others do. In addition, emotions may repeatedly resurge and persist a long time. Consequently, it may take more time for people with BPD than others to return to a stable emotional baseline following an intense emotional experience.

>People with BPD are often exceptionally enthusiastic, idealistic, joyful, and loving. However, they may feel overwhelmed by negative emotions ("anxiety, depression, guilt/shame, worry, anger, etc."), experiencing intense grief instead of sadness, shame and humiliation instead of mild embarrassment, rage instead of annoyance, and panic instead of nervousness.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#395

Post by mcgrath_sh »

actsasbuffoon wrote: post #318
geoka9 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

I tend to informally address mixed gender groups as "you guys," and I know that bugs some people. Unfortunately I can't think of any better gender neutral terms that maintain the informal feeling. Sometimes I wish I was southern so I could get away with "y'all." It's such a useful term, but it sounds so wrong coming from my north eastern accent.

You could always go with the Pittsburgh/Western PA equivalent of "yinz." :)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#396

Post by Broken_Hippo »

monksy wrote: post #366
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the op, but female as well. Guy is a general term most times, but I've known a few women that get offended by it because they aren't male. Dude is also used for both, but a lot of folks don't want to use that in the office. Alternatively, just use person and be safe.

> women that get offended by it because they aren't male. There are a few people who get upset over it or intentionally make a vocial issue out of something that isn't. ("Guys" is generally a genderless term ["You guys, take a look at this!"]

I completely agree.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#397

Post by Broken_Hippo »

stcredzero wrote: post #337
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the op, but female as well. Guy is a general term most times, but I've known a few women that get offended by it because they aren't male. Dude is also used for both, but a lot of folks don't want to use that in the office. Alternatively, just use person and be safe.

"Folks"?

That has slipped into my vocabulary. I moved to Norway, and started learning Norwegian. Folk is one of the words for people, and has some other uses too.

And it crept into my English vocabulary. I think I sound weird when I use it sometimes, but you are the first to point it out :)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#398

Post by Jtsummers »

FreedomToCreate wrote: post #389
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the op, but female as well. Guy is a general term most times, but I've known a few women that get offended by it because they aren't male. Dude is also used for both, but a lot of folks don't want to use that in the office. Alternatively, just use person and be safe.

Be safe!!!!!! From what? Being scared of offending someone over the word dude or guys. I can't even imagine the anxiety you must suffer from if you are trying to avoid offending anyone. Hey I'm offended you used the word op. When I was a kid, these kids used to bully me by calling me an Op. Can you refrain was using that word.

Most of the time there's just a handful of cases to be aware of when communicating with others to avoid offending anyone. And it's actually a pretty stress-free experience if you choose to speak to people in a professional setting using professional, formal language.

This is very much a cultural issue. From my time in Korea, a young person speaking to an older person in a familiar way would've been a major faux pas. On the other hand, the reverse (and consequent potential for put downs on the younger person) seemed quite common (older referring to younger more familiarly than had been earned). Similar experience in Spanish-language communities and cultures. English, particularly American, speaking communities have developed an incredibly tendency towards informality and unearned familiarity in our language. That's not a bad thing, strictly speaking, but it is something to consider.

When you enter into a professional setting, or a setting with people you aren't familiar with, just speak to them in more formal, professional, or polite ways and you are incredibly unlikely to offend someone (outside the occasional, "My father was Mr. Such-and-such, I'm just Bob", or random enlisted Army guy, "Don't call me sir, I work for a living"). It is stress-free if this sort of language is something you practice on a daily basis, it's just how you speak to people.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#399

Post by yarou »

Jtsummers wrote: post #370
kefka wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is a great example of derailing a conversation by attacking the specific language used. This tactic is used to great effect by SJW's. I only need look down the thread to see how much you caused. Many a times, this type of harassment is mainly what women claim against men. But what exactly is harassment? Well, there's no real good definition. There's a point where any sane individual would agree... But I've a…

Not sure I derailed anything. Tallied the comments. Mine and the responses to it are about 43 in total. But there are 353 (at the time of writing this) comments on this post. So 310 comments unrelated to my comment. I suspect, then, that no derailment actually occurred. Rather, a bunch of discussions are happening simultaneously, and language and its implications are one of those conversations. Also, I'm not a TLA, I…

Let's be honest here, we both know what you were doing. I'm surprised the mods tolerate this type of virtue signaling and inflammatory behavior. You're clearly trying to bait the person you're responding to.

And you're not even doing it correctly. Gendered pronouns in general shouldn't be used. Please use "Xir" or "Zhe" when referring to a group of individuals whose sex may be female, but whose gender identity is unknown.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#400

Post by [deleted] »

analyst74 wrote: post #125

For anyone new to office politics, or have not experienced hostile politics before, keep those in mind: - Make sure to have some real friends at work. No, someone you work with everyday is not necessarily a real friend, you have to make real connections with them, so they are willing to defend and support you when things get tough. - Be observant and empathetic, so you can notice problems when they first arise, and r…

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