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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#371

Post by vertex-four »

stcredzero wrote: post #354
vertex-four wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, guys who listen to what women say, respect their opinions, and make some form of effort to show that respect, get laid. Regularly. Male feminists are hard to find, and people like dating people who share their political beliefs.

Not what I have seen. Men who are confident, powerful, happy, and successful get laid. In certain places, those in power are left-leaning, and so the confident, powerful, happy, and successful men are espousing left-leaning ideologies to signal their worthiness and virtue. However, if you conduct an experiment and have a hetero identifying but poor, weak, and uncertain man claim that he's a feminist, you'll find that…

From what I've seen of my communities, I don't generally believe this, but it could be the case in other communities I'm unaware of.

Definitely, in the dominant societal structure, if you want to get laid you have to be confident, powerful, and successful. You're not going to go out to a club and get laid unless you meet certain requirements, or are capable of faking meeting them.

However, there are subcultures which do tend to turn that on its head. And if you're the sort of person who understands and does some basic research on modern feminist/queer issues vs pretending to respect women to get laid, you're likely to find them.

Also, the behaviours of rich, successful male feminists get called into question by feminists all the time. That you don't see this suggests a bubble you're in.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#372

Post by module0000 »

Asooka wrote: post #145
module0000 wrote: post #133

> I also eventually received an apology from the company and got time off to deal with my stress. I'm not sure how I feel(as an AAPL shareholder) about this. I invest in the company, and they are spending(albeit a tiny portion in the grand scheme of things) my money to pay you...so you can deal with your stress? Really? I understand bereavement leave, sick leave, and FMLA....but stress? What happened to businesses ex…

And how often did your team make fun of you, deride you on the job or act in an uncivil manner toward you in general? Stress is a real thing - when it builds up and you're not a tough military guy, you can't just suck it up. And even tough military guys do end up with severe stress, it's not called PTSD for "chin up and walk it off". Think about it again - AAPL are also paying two shitheads to insult female employees…

> Think about it again - AAPL are also paying two shitheads to insult female employees and lower productivity.

I read the article, and I missed the part where productivity was lowered.

> And how often did your team make fun of you, deride you on the job or act in an uncivil manner toward you in general?

An IT-related MOS in the military comes with a LOT of making fun, derision, and things civies generally don't understand. In that light, maybe that's my problem with this: "I don't understand" the world those civies work in, and am incapable of relating to them or feeling empathy towards them.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#373

Post by yarou »

The H1B visa system needs to be overhauled or done away with entirely. It's truly sickening to see how we as a society tolerate indentured servitude in the 21st century.

Companies use the system to purposefully depress wages. It needs to end.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#374

Post by FireBeyond »

kalleth wrote: post #44
pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

I'm astonished this is as high as it is. > did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? There are a huge number of reasons why you should not be expected to do this. The harasser can be in a position of authority, for example. Even separately to that (and i understand this is a reducio argument, but..) would you ask an abuse victim to speak to their abuser? No, they go straight to the poli…

"In the (very unlikely) event of the victim being untruthful, the matter should be dropped, not blow back on the reporter -- or nobody will report real problems for fear of being unfairly punished themselves."

What? Apparently, being untruthful about reporting harassment could result in the untruthful reporter being _unfairly_ punished?

Sounds like an all-win situation. Report harassment, true or not. If it helps your lot in life/work, great. If not, even if proven false, it gets dropped, non-consequentially. After all, it would be unfair to punish you...

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#375

Post by Bartweiss »

Fnoord wrote: post #360
Bartweiss wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think many of the dismissive reactions to these things have a similar basis. It can look like people excusing this behavior, but I think in many cases they've just never seen this behavior. If the worst you've seen at work is friendly teasing and maybe some racy language, it's easy to assume that's what happened and someone is overreacting. If you've seen someone truly corrosive, that assumption changes.…

Except its almost never teasing, its bullying. I learned the difference between teasing someone and bullying in elementary school, directly via the education system (ie. the teacher). Repeated 'joke' on/about the same subject? Bullying. Is it mutual fun between/with different subjects, and can the subject themselves laugh about the joke? Teasing. Telling someone to 'shape up' after they heard a joke regarding their r…

I agree with the distinction you're making, but I don't see at all how it supports the "almost never teasing" lead-in. I'm making a general point, and there are plenty of workplaces where "different subjects and people laugh at themselves also" is a perfectly good summary.

I also agree that teasing really shouldn't tread on race/sex/etc - even if it's innocently meant it can easily be a topic too raw for human, and too similar to not-at-all-innocent comments.

Which is why your last line is jarring - it's almost exactly the sort of comment that you and the original post are objecting to!

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#376

Post by [deleted] »

ad-hominem wrote: post #204
pmlnr wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may not have used enough words, but you should not add yours either. Talking to someone should be the first step, not talking to their managers, parents, superiors, whatever. If the situation is that bad, call the police, but that is an assault. An example to back my "statement": https://www.gov.uk/how-to-resolve-neighbour-disputes/overvie... => 1.1. It's also usually the logical thing adults do.

> It's also usually the logical thing adults do I am saddened that HN people completely miss this, and act like it's completely outside the bounds of normal behavior. Everyone in this story was an adult. She definitely should have spoken to them first.

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#377

Post by beachstartup »

wpietri wrote: post #223
edblarney wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. I often call people quite my junior 'boys' and 'girls'. I work with a startup of dudes under 24. I call them 'lads'. I could technically be their father. Is that wrong? No. Neither is using the term Mrs. Ms. or Miss.. In far-left socialist Montreal, where women are not even allowed by law to take their husband's name - people use the French equivalent everywhere: 'Madame' and 'Mademoiselle'. Sam…

> and avoid getting into culture wars Complaining about identity politics is how white men practice identity politics. Your post here is a shot fired in a culture war. You can't do that and complain about culture wars. The phenomenon you're exploiting here is that the status quo is seen as the default state of the system. When women talk about bias, it's easy to say, "Why are women always talking about bias? Why are…

> Complaining about identity politics is how white men practice identity politics

i despise identity politics, and i'm not a white man.

so... did you just assume my race and gender, shitlord? or do you have some tidy explanation for why i, too, am privileged without knowing it? (of course you do)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#378

Post by lusen »

sanderjd wrote: post #279
edblarney wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" --> "I don't think there is one." No - the feminine of 'guy' is 'girl'. Point blank. "The guys/girls are in town this week" "Those guys/girls are from Facebook" This is very common and normal language.

I see now that you're from Canada. Maybe what you are saying is true there. In the US, it is not true. Women don't like to be called girls, just like men don't like to be called boys. That our forebears didn't deign to create a feminine version of "guy" is no excuse.

For anyone wondering why "girls" is a loaded term, think about how it used to be ok in the US for white people to call adult black men "boy". Would you call your coworker or boss "boy"? No, it would feel terribly terribly wrong, especially if they are black. It would be a gross microaggression and bullying behavior.

That's what calling women "girls" is like. It's a pejorative that maintains bias and prevents us from seeing a class of people as active and capable.

Men get tied up and abused as prisoners of war and they're heros. Women get tied up and abused by men, they're victims. Women as "girls" is part of this false socially constructed narrative about female "impotence."

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#379

Post by heisenbit »

dominotw wrote: post #123

>woman and minority in tech its a bit of stretch to call Indians a minority in tech, if anything we are vastly over-represented by any standard.

For purposes of bullying all that matters is that you are standing out and are weak. This can be taking all sorts of forms:

- younger

- older

- skin

- gender

- introvert

- education

All that matters is there is an abuser that for whatever internal reasons completely out of your control is acting out against you. That acting out is persistent as such persons are driven by internal irrational mechanisms often related to their broken attachment system.

The environment is either going along with it if it is a gang leader or are passive standing by. For bullying at the workplace to take place often the management level above has to be either endorsing or more likely ignoring it (conflict of interest, fear, ignorance, distracted by crisis).

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#380

Post by adekok »

gcp wrote: post #221
adekok wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one believes women when they say there are problems and hence there is no progress .. There are huge public awareness campaigns around all of these issues.

Yes, and for good reason :-)

So when people say no one believes women when they say there are problems, and at the same time, there are huge public awareness campaigns, I have to point out the inherent contradiction involved.

Everything I see in the media is that there are not only huge awareness campaigns, but that when something does happen, there are also huge outcries about it.

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