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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#321

For anyone new to office politics, or have not experienced hostile politics before, keep those in mind: - Make sure to have some real friends at work. No, someone you work with everyday is not necessarily a real friend, you have to make real connections with them, so they are willing to defend and support you when things get tough. - Be observant and empathetic, so you can notice problems when they first arise, and r…

Note: This comment is not based on the article, but my personal experience (in the UK - if that matters)

Honestly, having a third party involved has worked well. Sometimes, misunderstandings linger and fester, and then even the most innocuous things can be construed wrongly. A third party (a good manager is ideal) saying either "you're being too sensitive" or "no, they were out of line, i'll talk to them" helps. I don't know of anybody who's refused to iron out issues, and I firmly believe most people are decent enough to help.

But at the end of the day, you don't have to like everybody you work with, as long as there's respect from both parties. That's being professional. If respect isn't there, either you or your manager is going to have to make a call sooner or later. For better or worse, this is probably going to come down to team dynamics, as teams that work well together are very valuable. This might suck, but I've never seen racism or sexism being the dominant effect in a small team (I guess it helps if it's "just" a job to you. Normally, I'd simply start looking for a job elsewhere, but if I was at Apple, I'd want to stay there.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#322

I really doubt guys who are scared to say girls get laid. But that's just my opinion.

Trust me, guys who listen to what women say, respect their opinions, and make some form of effort to show that respect, get laid. Regularly. Male feminists are hard to find, and people like dating people who share their political beliefs.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nonsense, it's still an uphill battle for victims to get their harasser convicted in Canada. See Jian Ghomeshi, " A) I don't doubt it can be difficult for women - but my statement holds true. B) Referencing 'Giah Gomeshi' entirely validates my point. He was put on trial by a woman who was blatantly and vindictively proven to be lying through her teeth. Gian Gomeshi's trial was a farce - he should have never been pro…

> A) I don't doubt it can be difficult for women - but my statement holds true. That doesn't make any sense? You said: > If a girl feels harassed - then that's it. Guilty. Yet you go on and acknowledge that it may be hard to get their harasser convicted. In all those 3 cases I mentioned (including Ghomeshi), there were many victims that felt harassed. Yet no one in any of those cases was convicted. How does that make…

I think it makes sense if I rephrase it this way:

"Many valid incidents of harassment are dismissed/ignored, and many invalid/borderline incidents are punished unfairly, and therefore the current system sucks for everybody".

Which seems entirely possible.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#324
post #242
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key is "young" woman. From wikipedia, "A girl is a female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman. " The discussion is specifically about calling an adult female human a "girl". Emphasis on adult, which in the US is typically regarded as 18.

My dictionary says a girl is a young or relatively young woman. Keyword on relatively.

I recommend you give up on this one. It sounds defensive and isn't helping your argument.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#325
post #148

I think commenters who are reacting negatively to this story are reacting to the vocabulary rather than the story. Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them. At the same time, words like "sexism" and phrases like "as a minority..." are a big turn-off to some readers, myself included. This isn't because I don't believe in racism/sexism/xen…

> Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them. Why, though? Because people don't lie, exaggerate, or have strange ideas of what others are doing to them?

In this particular case, my thinking says Author is probably telling the truth. She has really no incentive of saying anything at all, she can keep it all to herself.

On other hand - never in my career, I have seen HR truly standing up for the Employee. The goal is always to deflect and maintain plausible deniability. I have never read a single story on Internet that highlights those HR heroes we deserve.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#327
Something doesn't add up. There's usually one or two jerks in a group. They have to be dealt with. When it's the whole group systematically harassing you about your race and gender.. well, you're probably a blogger on Medium.

> As a woman and minority in tech, I have also often felt like a lone barometer in gauging the importance of a lot of issues around gender, race and culture.

Starting the article about how you've always been a victim

> One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism. The gesture was unnecessary, so I was taken aback

Your manager sees you floundering and tries to help you out

> However, a group of other male coworkers who resented the attention I received

Whaaaat??? Is this middle school? Okay, let's start dropping names.

> I started having major sleep disturbances, endocrine issues, and depressive symptoms (crying spells, anger outbursts, chronic fatigue, gastrointestinal problems)

This sounds extreme and possibly symptomatic of other psychological factors at play.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#328
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

Dolls As in Guys and Dolls. Isn't it a 50s american slang thing?

Dunno if you're joking but one wouldn't refer to a group of women that way nowadays. Sort of has negative connotations.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the power differential? In the same way that it's different for a short man dealing with harassment from a tall man, or an average man dealing with harassment from a gymbro.

There are always power dynamics in corporations. It's called office politics. They'll always exist because that's how human relationships work. Some people are better than others at relationships. Your prejudice for so-called "gymbros" aside, most employees have underwhelming relationship skills, and anyone can learn to play the politics game well enough to have a good career. Blaming being "short" is just excuse-mak…

To expand, since I can no longer edit:

People here really should read up on what "relationship triangles" are. Most people a) can't recognize them when they occur, and b) don't realize how toxic and dysfunctional this relationship dynamic is. This must not become the new norm in the workplace, as there will be, as with any type of dysfunction, large human costs.

In an ideal world, people would assert themselves respectfully to the people causing undesired behavior (which OP admits she didn't do) and coworkers should empathically listen and adjust their behavior (which according to her also didn't happen). Both of those things should have happened; there are two reasons they didn't:

1) Most people are simply not mature enough to communicate like this. People don't get taught how to resolve conflict among each other and how to assert themselves respectfully. Most people don't know how to assert themselves, and instead blame, generalize ("you always do this"), and attack. And most people also can't empathically listen, and adapt their behavior, they might just refuse to change, or even feel slighted and seek "revenge". This is a complex problem, and the people treating it as a "women's issue" are presenting an almost pathetically oversimplified view.

2) Even if people dared assert themselves, they're afraid that the company would punish them for it. This also should be fixed, but it doesn't undermine the existence of the first point.

The real problem is that the vast majority of people have pretty poor communication skills, and nobody is willing to address this, instead opting to play political partisan games. Schools and the culture at large should teach effective communication, assertion and problem-solving skills, if we want to make any progress.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#330
post #316

I was sympathetic to her plight up until the 'personal impact' part. It seems to me that the author is using hyperbole when describing her physical/emotional impact on herself and her family to gain some form of sympathy from her audience. With statements like this: >This strife has shattered all of our lives like nothing else before. Based on this statement it seems to me the author and her family have yet to face a…

The reason why our society has such a poor understanding of mental health is because we demand a "real travesty" as a cause of mental illness. Unless there is one, the default assumption is that people are making it up. This is a dangerous belief that harms people.

I think what scoreponok is trying to say is at the end of the day, it's just a job.

There is a lot of suffering and trauma in the world. Even though I don't want to try and quantify either of those for different events, there's probably a difference between say being affected by a natural disaster and issues at work. After all, work != life.

Note that this obviously don't mean the issue is to be trivialised. After all, we can't do anything about natural disasters, but we can do something about racism or sexism, etc. and we should.

Edit: I picked natural disasters, because the quote "This strife has shattered all of our lives like nothing else before" could also apply to such an event. Other examples I can think of include illness, stalking, and war/PTSD. To be honest, I find it hard to think of working for Apple and going to war having the same effect. Although if the article is accurate, the comparison might be, too - worth thinking about.

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