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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#501

Post by shadowwolf007 »

smsm42 wrote: post #327
Rapzid wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth pointing out that is just for the down payment. If you want to get ahead in life you need to be "saving" that much and more every year. And oops, your expenses just shot up dramatically because now you're a home owner.

BTW everybody knows about mortgage payments/rent but many forget about property taxes you have to pay as a homeowner. That's about 1.5% of your house purchase cost every year. Of course, there are tax deductions for that but even after them it's still non-negligible chunk of cash on homes approaching $1M.

Anecdote to back up what you wrote:

When I bought my first home my loan (P+I) payment was $1300 per month on average (paid every 2 weeks), which was not only affordable but cheaper than what I was renting at once you accounted for interest deductions! But the taxes were somewhere around $500 a month after the township raised local property tax by the maximum year after year. Due to average daily balance laws and escrow regulations, we often had a substantial amount of money "invested" in to our escrow account.

There was no amount of deductions to make this home an asset. It pushed a good quality home at a great price to something that now remains completely unoccupied.

My situation is 100% atypical - but I more meant to illustrate how big of an impact property taxes can be.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#502

Post by linkregister »

shawndumas wrote: post #478
linkregister wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will unequivocally state that a total comp of $150k+ for a new grad is at the very least, the top 5% of software development salaries for that level of experience.

was the op a new grad? sorry, I missed that. yes, $150k for a ncg in the first year is high. but honestly not that high, and for a 2nd year... doable from my experience [1]. [1: I am an engineering manager at Google]

Yes, doable at Google, a company known for being at the top of the market in compensation.

The whole point of the original statement was "I made $X and saved $Y, it's not that hard." But when you examine the X and the Y, they are not representative at all!

It has similar merit to a lottery winner saying, "why can't you win the lottery too? All I did was buy a lottery ticket."

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#503

Post by pascalxus »

krenoten wrote: post #263
mooreds wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to be able to have coffee with a VC If you are building a company that needs VC funding. Most companies don't. "Venture Capital is the wrong source of capital for the vast majority of entrepreneurial ventures" http://avc.com/2005/03/dont_take_the_m/ If you aren't looking to raise VC but instead want to be part of a vibrant tech ecosystem, well, that opens up more mid tier cities. For starters: San Diego, L…

I've been far happier as an engineer in NYC and Berlin than SF. Gentrification has made SF a pretty boring place to be, and I felt that my overall sense of creativity plummeted there when I was surrounded by so few people from different backgrounds.

I don't think there's nearly as much gentrification as people say there is, overall. I mean sure, there's a huge amount of gentrification in the 20% of SF that is not rent controlled: there only the super rich can live.

But, as for the other 80% that's rent controlled, lots of it is pretty dilapidated, almost borderline 3rd world country in some parts. 1% (7k people) of the SF population is homeless and even more are nearly there (despite over 240 million$ a year spent fighting homelessness).

Perhaps the reason people find SF boring is due to the hollowing out of the middle class.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#504

Post by cylinder »

linkregister wrote: post #339
pdimitar wrote: post #244

> It’s easy to hear data and stories like these and conclude that programmers moving to the Bay Area are suckers. After all, salaries have not risen by 70% in the past four years. But what this analysis misses is the extent to which this place and time is exceptional. The author lost me right there, even though I did make an honest effort to read the article to the end. (1) There are plenty of "brain centers" in the…

I wonder if you have ever been to the Bay Area. It sounds like your entire conception of it is from HBO's Silicon Valley. Most developers in the Bay Area are working 9-10 hours per day, not 16. > Most of us Europeans strongly dislike touting. This is a Scandinavian trait, not universally European. It's not even universally Scandinavian. You're mad about something, but I can't figure it out. What is it?

I'm not parent poster but I do find Americans hype everything up, including their cities; probably that has a lot to do with all the media/tv/film here too, anyhow it does become annoying (and I'm American).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#505

Post by ohwello »

linkregister wrote: post #502
shawndumas wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

was the op a new grad? sorry, I missed that. yes, $150k for a ncg in the first year is high. but honestly not that high, and for a 2nd year... doable from my experience [1]. [1: I am an engineering manager at Google]

Yes, doable at Google , a company known for being at the top of the market in compensation. The whole point of the original statement was "I made $X and saved $Y, it's not that hard." But when you examine the X and the Y, they are not representative at all! It has similar merit to a lottery winner saying, "why can't you win the lottery too? All I did was buy a lottery ticket."

Google pays substantially more than that - matching that number does not put you at the top of the market. Companies paying that much include many of the largest tech employers in the area. Compensation for job switchers has been increasing rapidly since the no-poaching ring was busted, but you have to know to ask for it. Lots of people are anchored from that period and don't know what they are missing.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#506

Post by Hydraulix989 »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #359
mooreds wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One time I talked to a Google recruiter, and that was the message he conveyed. "Sure, you can work at a satellite office, but if you are interested in your career, Mountain View is where you want to be."

Two caveats to that: - I promise you that's only true as far as your project's priority. For example if Google Maps in Colorado is more important to the company, at the moment, than some other project at HQ, then working on that project at HQ is not better for your career. - Remember a recruiter is a sales person. Some are honest, some will tell you what serves their own interest.

Yes, I doubt the MTV recruiter gets commission if they have to hand you off to the satellite office recruiter instead.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#507

Post by closeparen »

chris_7 wrote: post #463
reality_czech wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really cold and wet all the time. Non-compete agreements are valid so prepare to be screwed over if you change jobs. You don't have the California code on your side if you want to do a side project-- it will be owned by your employer. Amazon will work you like a rented mule and that bald guy in charge is creepy as fuck. Traffic in Seattle is worse than the Bay Area (yes really). They can't expand I-95 because th…

> They can't expand I-95 because they made the decision to tunnel it through a building (long story) Expanding highways makes traffic worse.

Expanding highways makes traffic acceptable for more people (no change or slight dip in latency, but more throughput) which increases housing supply.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#508

Post by eatbitseveryday »

mrkurt wrote: post #182
chrisweekly wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childcare exceeds all other household expenses (incl housing) in a huge % of families. Wish I had stats to cite, none avlbl atm.

Oh yes. That wasn't a factor for us (stay at home parenting!) but school expense would have been if we'd tried to get our kids good schooling.

Staying at home to parent means a missing income. I would include that as a cost.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#509

Post by pdimitar »

linkregister wrote: post #479
pdimitar wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me being mad -- that's partially true. Mostly I am just sick and tired of the fake positive SF press coverage. It's so forced you can just smell the dollars spent to write the article. Or the lack of any personal life of those who praise their employer and job. Apologies for the mistake -- I mean "Most of us Eastern Europeans strongly dislike touting", by the way. It's a fact that I have never been to the Sillicon Va…

You're right, I don't have an industry-wide study of working hours, just going off of everyone I know who works in the Bay Area. The notion that I or anyone else in the Bay Area is responsible for policing the free press's reporting on SF/SV is absurd.

I hope it's clear that I don't mean that in the blunt literal sense.

But IMO counter-articles on Medium with a much milder tone and stripped of screaming marketing hype would go a long way. Help spread the right message about the Bay Area.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#510

Post by drdeadringer »

hisham_hm wrote: post #316
Mz wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am having enormous difficulty parsing that comment. I have tried to just let it go, but I am failing at that, and I am seriously struggling to reply in a way that does not sound like snark. Could you clarify what you mean? Because it sounds like either you are saying "Culture only exists in tiny parts of certain places, no place else in the South Bay even has a culture" (which is utterly nonsensical) or maybe you a…

I'm guessing what was meant by culture was "cultural life", as in "things to do outside" (think the Arts & Culture section of the newspaper).

I look for that type of thing and seem to find an alright selection. I don't always select, but there's a selection.
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