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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#301

Post by ryandrake »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #265
nsxwolf wrote: post #167

I'm married with 4 kids. We like living in roughly 3,000 square feet of housing with on roughly a quarter acre of land, so I'm going to guess in absolutely no universe could it ever make sense for us to move to the Bay Area.

Depends. My old boss (also married with 4 kids) did it. He lives in Pleasanton in order to afford a house and commutes to Mountain View. Has to get up very early to beat the traffic though. The upside is that, while I obviously don't know exactly how much he makes, from what I know about people at his level at Google, he is undoubtedly doing quite nicely.

Pleasanton is extremely expensive due to its top notch public schools. Your old boss was doing extremely well if he could afford a home there.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#302

Post by madengr »

eganist wrote: post #238
astrange wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've carefully cultivated non-tech friends in SF/South/East Bay, to the point where I actually need to meet more tech people now since I have no idea what work life is like at other companies. It's been worthwhile and we do plenty of stuff, but you have to be prepared to drive very long distances to see anyone. And many people who don't get into tech move away, so practically everyone is younger than me (and male) an…

> DC I'm assuming you've never paid us a visit :( DC literally has the second largest mass transit system in the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_rapid_tr...

Assuming they can keep it from catching on fire or de-railing. I'm happy to be out of NOVA/MD/DC.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#303

Post by mooreds »

tinbadtin wrote: post #268
WhitneyLand wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>go to Bay Area to a big firm to build your reputation Doesn't make sense. The big 4 have campuses across the country. Instead of telling people to move to SV I would recommend making sure to get into the right (big 4 or not) team and role for your career. Just fixing bugs at big SV company will not help much. You want to make sure you have a chance to contribute something to show your skills on an innovative or lead…

I have to agree with the OP, I know a few Googlers (my wife used to work there) who transferred from satellite offices (say Venice or NYC) to MTV and all of a sudden their careers took off. Generally, being physically there where the action is (HQ) seems to pay off for ones career.

One time I talked to a Google recruiter, and that was the message he conveyed. "Sure, you can work at a satellite office, but if you are interested in your career, Mountain View is where you want to be."

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#304

Post by minwcnt5 »

chrisper wrote: post #176
skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

Maybe it is because I live in the South Bay. But here it seems that everyone is just going to work and back home.. and that's it. There is nothing else going on here, but work work work.

I don't know what exactly you're looking at, because from my perspective "everyone" is an insane exaggeration on your part. I know countless people who run, cycle, ski, mountain bike, play soccer, go backpacking, play board games, travel, partake in live music, and so on and so forth.

Sure there are disproportionately more workaholics in the area. There are also disproportionately fewer people who work 9-5 then go home and veg out on their couch. To me, the lifestyle here is rich and amazing. Where I grew up, which was in an equally large and cosmopolitan city, it's too cold or too hot for 4-6 months of the year to do much outdoors, salaries weren't high enough for people to routinely go to expensive restaurants or travel, and the geography is nowhere near as beautiful or interesting.

Maybe you should look inward more and take charge of your life; it may be that you're hanging around people who focus entirely on work, and so your perception is skewed.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#305

Post by amorphid »

alexhutcheson wrote: post #101
ammon wrote: post #2

When people compare salaries / the cost of living in different cities, they often fail to account for the fact that many people don't spend their entire salary in the local economy. If you are trying to save money (or pay for college, donate to a cause, or buy a Ferrari) this costs the same no matter where you live. You should only apply the cost of living adjustment to housing (and maybe food). When you do this, liv…

Lyman Stone has a good blog post[1] suggesting that it's rational for Millenials loaded down with student loan debt to live in high cost-of-living regions, for exactly this reason. The high nominal incomes give them more power to repay their student debt, which is not cost-of-living adjusted. [1] https://medium.com/migration-issues/millennials-have-less-de...

This worked for me. I borrowed way too much money going to school. As a fresh MBA grad in the suburbs of Los Angeles, California, with few marketable skills, I couldn't find any career options that would offer a starting salary that came close to covering my costs.

My big break was finding a job in San Francisco. I charmed my way into an entry level sales gig with a base salary of about 35K USD (in 2004), and was soon making at a 70K-ish "annual run rate" (stealing that from startup PR lingo). And that job did all of the lead generation for me. I wasn't able to find a job like that outside of a big city.

Even when I was homeless for a bit a few years later, I chose to stay in San Francisco over moving in with my suburban LA parents because there I saw more opportunity in San Francisco. For me, it was riskier to play it safe in the burbs than hustling in San Francisco. It's better to burn out than fade away.

The way I see it, if you wanna make it as a professional, and you don't have a reasonably understood career path to follow, it makes sense to go where the money is. You can live financially cheaply in most places, and you'll have to decide how much you're willing to work for it. For me, living in San Francisco is, and has been, worth it.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#307

Post by ryandrake »

kobeya wrote: post #220
kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

I've lived in the South Bay my whole life and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There are subcultures of workaholic stress magnets, but they are easily avoided. I work 40 hour weeks, have non-tech hobbies and weekends are sacred. Your experience may be typical of the crowd you hang with, but not the valley as a whole. I'm also mystified at the assertion that SF would be better in this respect. The c…

You are very fortunate then. My experience here in the Bay Area mirrors kLeeIsDead's. I get up at 6AM and come home from work at 7-8PM, and am mentally and physically exhausted daily from the whole rat race + commute. Totally different from other places I've lived where I could have a life. Fortunately I'm currently not subject to a lot of weekend work.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#308

Post by sAuronas »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #226
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

>go to Bay Area to a big firm to build your reputation Doesn't make sense. The big 4 have campuses across the country. Instead of telling people to move to SV I would recommend making sure to get into the right (big 4 or not) team and role for your career. Just fixing bugs at big SV company will not help much. You want to make sure you have a chance to contribute something to show your skills on an innovative or lead…

My first role was in Charlotte - at a startup. It's not everyday that you get to work for a company with fewer that 10 people and less than 10 months old but it happened for me in a market notorious for only having banking mobile dev roles. Ironically, I left the Bay Area to get my first shot because I wasn't young enough for cultural fit most places (apparently). Now, I'm in Chicago and while the weather is shit, there is a lot of energy here and the scene appears to be lifting off. You don't need to build a reputation in SF (or Oakland, et al).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#309

Post by brilliantcode »

I'm just not sure if the cost of living is worth the pay increase both from a service provider and business owner perspective....

Arguments like network effect, "being in the ecosystem" or near physical vicinity of other SV startups seem to be the face value but these are only superficial items.

I almost feel like with the connected world, as long as you are in a fairly crowded North American city, it shouldn't matter....unless your customers were all focused in SV area.

I'm not a city slicker or a instagram traveler so please feel free to offer any alternative view. Maybe being in SF is important but I'm too biased (haven't left Vancouver for 20+ years)...

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#310

Post by hrshtr »

I have been in Bay Area for little over 3 years with a fairly stable company. The opportunities are many in all technical fields(pro) but again it comes with the cut throat competition(con). One has to compete with people from FB/Google or new grads who have mugged all DS questions. My interest to stay in Bay Area is with the hope I could be able to join one of the companies which will be Uber/Airbnb of tomorrow and gain great experience and $$$.
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