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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#101

Post by alexhutcheson »

ammon wrote: post #2

When people compare salaries / the cost of living in different cities, they often fail to account for the fact that many people don't spend their entire salary in the local economy. If you are trying to save money (or pay for college, donate to a cause, or buy a Ferrari) this costs the same no matter where you live. You should only apply the cost of living adjustment to housing (and maybe food). When you do this, liv…

Lyman Stone has a good blog post[1] suggesting that it's rational for Millenials loaded down with student loan debt to live in high cost-of-living regions, for exactly this reason. The high nominal incomes give them more power to repay their student debt, which is not cost-of-living adjusted.

[1] https://medium.com/migration-issues/millennials-have-less-de...

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#102

Post by wwweston »

jrm415 wrote: post #61
ammon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT I incorrectly multiplied the tax rate to the salary difference, and said that this was a 5$ difference. This is totally wrong (as multiple people point out below). I'll leave my original embarrassing comment as a cation to not write stupid things :) == I just added in a mention of the tax difference. But the numbers are 13.3% in CA vs 0% in WA. That's significant, for sure. But 13% tax on $33k is about $5k. I do…

If you move to CA, you need to pay state tax on your entire earnings, not just your raise. 13.3% of 140k is more than 18k, which is certainly significant.

Wait -- is the assertion here that California state tax rates aren't marginal? Because I don't think that's true.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#103

Post by twblalock »

the_gastropod wrote: post #85
_skel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. I'm not sure what you think an average salary is. If you think an average engineer can save $50k cash per year out of his/her net income, you're way above the average I had in mind. Let's assume an average salary of $120k per year gross. That's about $6k per month net for a single person who takes the standa…

> assuming no 401k contributions. Why? Fully contributing to a 401k (assuming no company match) would put your "take home" at ~$79,200 instead of $72k following your tax rate (which I assume is roughly correct). > That's a net income of $72k per year. If that engineer saves $50k, that leaves only $12k for everything else $72k - $50k = $22k, not $12k. So with no 401k, you'd have to live on $22k to save $50k/year. When…

> $72k - $50k = $22k, not $12k.

Oops.

But that's still less than most people's annual rent, so it's still not enough to live on. It doesn't change my argument.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#104

Post by strictnein »

superqd wrote: post #88
jeroen94704 wrote: post #41

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with a wife and kids to move to the bay area". I secretly suspect the answer will be "no", since no matter how you slice it, a 4-bedroom house in the Bay Area won't be reachable until you are well on your way to, say, 40 or so.

I interviewed over phone and skype with a Bay area company not too long ago. In between interviews, since things were going well, I started looking for places to live. I have 2 kids, and currently live in a 4200 sq ft house in Texas. I was more than fine with downsizing, but not at the cost of eating up all my salary to live with my family in an apartment that was barely acceptable when I was single. My kids are curr…

I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#106

Post by logfromblammo »

twblalock wrote: post #76
OmarIsmail wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single person does NOT need to spend 3600/month in SF. That's crazy. A studio/1 bedroom can be had for 2500. And if you're willing to compromise on location (i.e. "the ghetto") you can get under 2K. Families that need 2+ bedrooms and a good/safe neighbourhood are screwed though.

You don't have to live in San Francisco. There are plenty of nearby cities with cheaper rent.

...like Sacramento.~

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#107

Post by JoshTriplett »

maqr wrote: post #65
JoshTriplett wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not understand the obsession the software industry has for locality. For many types of problems, collaborating in person works far better than collaborating online. Lower friction, easier to have a conversation, easier to sit around a computer and experiment, and generally easier to handle things in a few minutes that would take longer otherwise.

Yes, let's all keep believing that. If companies realized that all programmers can actually work decentralized, we might not be able to command a decent salary as it becomes a global race to the bottom...

As a developer, I've specifically pushed to maintain a co-located team, precisely because the type of work my team does works far better when co-located.

I do decentralized development regularly, and for some kinds of work it works fine. For other kinds of work, it makes simple tasks take an order of magnitude longer.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#108

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

Henchilada wrote: post #93

This whole dialogue shows a very laborer-centric view of the world. What is missing from this entire conversation is the concept of being an employer/founder or independent consultant. If you want to bootstrap a startup, the Bay Area cost basis is going to destroy your nest egg until you can raise capital. Also, this conversation implies that you are employed 100% of the time, ignoring any cases where you quit, are f…

Considering that we're posting on a platform owned by venture capitalists, I think the more labor-centered posts we get the better.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#109

Post by wolfgke »

Kluny wrote: post #17
rememberlenny wrote: post #4

This point is interesting: [3] We find that engineers often under-value startup success (growth rate, revenue) when looking for jobs, and instead place an emphasis on brand-recognition, or whether they find the subject area exciting. Now, I don't mean to judge anyone for this — working in an areas of passion may be great choice. But if your goal is to maximize your financial outcome, looking at startups more like an…

Investors diversify their portfolios by investing in a number of startups and also in more reliable investments like well-established companies. You can't treat a job that way - there's no way to diversify the hours of day into several different companies with different risk levels. What the author describes is gambling. You bet all your resources (time, in this case) on one horse and hope it pays off big. That's not…

> Investors diversify their portfolios by investing in a number of startups and also in more reliable investments like well-established companies. You can't treat a job that way - there's no way to diversify the hours of day into several different companies with different risk levels.

It is definitively possible to diversify: Just do an agreement with other programmers to put all (or, say, 50%) your incomes into a common pot and distribute the content of the pot among all peers. Just set up terms and conditions and let everybody who is part of this agreement sign them.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#110

Post by falsestprophet »

sbov wrote: post #27
michaelchisari wrote: post #5

I ended up in Los Angeles because, despite being an expensive city, rents were cheaper than the Bay Area, and the salaries being offered were equivalent. I have a great place in LA that would easily be 50% to double the price in the Bay. This wasn't the only reason but it was one of the biggest. Another reason being that I wanted to work in tech as it relates to media and content, and there were many more options to…

Same, but I bought a house. Just outside of LA there are cities with some of the best public schools in the state (and some the country), and you don't have to pay $1.5 million+ for a house in the district.

Which cities?
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