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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#121
post #114
post #76

There's a curious lack of detail in this story. No direct quotes, or even reasonable level of detail to the accusations. For example: "One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism." I'm sure there's a way that a supervisor jumping to your defense could be sexist, but this isn't showing that, at all. "At a lunch with several other coworkers, one of these men orde…

>There's a curious lack of detail in this story. It's not curious at all. She's being careful not to identify specific individuals.

A direct quote, or more detail would go a long way in helping others understand the situation. I don't see how either would identify specific individuals. In fact, she specifically says "her supervisor", which already calls out a specific individual.

For example, the supervisor jumping to her defense. What did he say, exactly? Or failing that, what was the situation, how did he defend her? All we get is that he defended her, and she interpreted it as being sexist...sometime later.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#122
post #121
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a curious lack of detail in this story. It's not curious at all. She's being careful not to identify specific individuals.

A direct quote, or more detail would go a long way in helping others understand the situation. I don't see how either would identify specific individuals. In fact, she specifically says "her supervisor", which already calls out a specific individual. For example, the supervisor jumping to her defense. What did he say, exactly? Or failing that, what was the situation, how did he defend her? All we get is that he defen…

I think you're missing the point of the article. She's helping us out by giving us a heads up about a problem in the industry. If you choose to disbelieve her, that's your prerogative.

It's pointless to make a pretence of scrutinising the article when it's obviously impossible for her to prove beyond all doubt that her recollection of events is accurate. Just believe it or don't. Don't go asking "where's the proof??", as if you are expecting her to have videotape evidence for all of this.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#124
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by "free rider problem". Rather than buying negotiation services from a union, I simply negotiated my own employment agreement. Who am I "free riding" on? If I hack together my own IDE in emacs, am I somehow "free riding" on the people who sell commercial IDEs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem (EDIT: to expand, this is the problem with voluntary associations when it comes to acting effectively toward their goals, and if you follow this general rabbit hole far enough, basically why government is a thing )

In reality, price discovery does not require any such monopoly. For example, the stock market is highly efficient at price discovery, yet there is no single monopolistic buyer who chooses prices for everyone who wants to purchase a stock.

I am aware of the debate as to whether index funds should be illegal (e.g. [1]), but I don't find them super compelling. Index investors are not, in fact, passive, they are merely investing in one particular direction, and active investors can trade against them if that direction is wrong.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-08-24/are-index...

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#125
For anyone new to office politics, or have not experienced hostile politics before, keep those in mind:

- Make sure to have some real friends at work. No, someone you work with everyday is not necessarily a real friend, you have to make real connections with them, so they are willing to defend and support you when things get tough.

- Be observant and empathetic, so you can notice problems when they first arise, and resolve them before they escalate. This is hard for engineers, as we focus on computers most of the time and don't get to practice the skills of empathy a lot.

- Be strong. Sometimes escalations do happen, and now you have one or more people dislike you and try to make your life hard. You need to be emotionally strong to withstand their attacks, and keep a clear mind to figure out a way to defeat them or at least reach a ceasefire.

Sadly, politics happen all the time when inter-personal interactions happen, not necessarily the result of one shady colleague with agendas. This could happen to anyone, although sadly more often to minorities, because it's harder to hide the fact that we are outsiders.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#126
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

> But does it target everyone _equally_ ? LOL, wat? Each and every case is unique, there is no equal in this. I even gave an example, which has happened to me, to friends, to my wife equally...

> which has happened to me, to friends, to my wife equally...

I assume your lying to try and prove a point. Unless you back this up with evidence, one should safely assume you are lying.

I don't like doing this, but as someone once said: there are people out there who lie. Especially these days, with the problems of fake news, it's easy to get suspicious.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#127
post #53

I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. I imagine there's a different side to this. Her coworkers noticed her getting treated differently and started teasing her about it, in a typical form of…

  A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too
I would argue, quite strongly, that you're not in a position to make that call.

Being a privileged, white male it was hard for me to see what woman are put through in terms of casual sexism in the workplace and in society.

Since my girlfriend works as a secondary school teacher I see much clearer what's wrong and it's partially very subtle.

Here's an example: performance review? Criticism about how she dresses. This would never come up with one her male colleagues (and yes, she checked).

That's totally casual sexism over which you may "harumph!" about. But unless you're a woman (or another discriminated against minority) you're in no position to make that determination.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#129
post #122
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A direct quote, or more detail would go a long way in helping others understand the situation. I don't see how either would identify specific individuals. In fact, she specifically says "her supervisor", which already calls out a specific individual. For example, the supervisor jumping to her defense. What did he say, exactly? Or failing that, what was the situation, how did he defend her? All we get is that he defen…

I think you're missing the point of the article. She's helping us out by giving us a heads up about a problem in the industry. If you choose to disbelieve her, that's your prerogative. It's pointless to make a pretence of scrutinising the article when it's obviously impossible for her to prove beyond all doubt that her recollection of events is accurate. Just believe it or don't. Don't go asking "where's the proof??"…

Not looking for her to "prove beyond all doubt".

But, there's several stories in there where a direct quote of what was said to her would be more enlightening than her interpretation as to the motive behind what was said. Or failing a direct quote...how about just the basis of his "defense" of her. Did he call out the high quality of her work (seems fine), or did he say to lay off because she was fragile (seems not fine), or what?

Her supervisor is a real person too, and I don't see why it's okay to post a public accusation without some detail other than just interpretation...what you think his intention was.

Edit: You keep saying I don't believe her. Didn't say that. It is, however, a post of public accusations, almost all based on something that was said....without a single direct quote of what was said, or even enough detail to understand why she interpreted them the way she did. That's odd to me, whether I believe her or not.

There's a big difference between "excruciating detail" and "almost no detail, and not a single direct quote".

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#130

> No one at the company took responsibility for anything other than protecting the company’s liability in case of a lawsuit The tech industry absolutely doesn't need unions /s

From my mothers similar experiences followed by her unions absolute refusal to help, in a word, no. They exist to parasitically take your money, forcibly take others who don't want to give and really offer very little in return other than more bureaucracy.

Your much better off paying a lawyer than a union.

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