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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#71

Post by sqldba »

> I was getting preferential treatment because of my “cuteness factor”

> Indian women being subservient

I agree that these comments don't belong in the workplace. I have seen similar ones lead to people fired on the day and escorted to the door. Thankfully it's relatively rare but some places do take it very seriously.

Apple was wrong. In Australia the law is clear and they've breached it. Take them to court and get your payout. It's annoying that the victim has to do that but it's possible.

For other parts of the article I put myself in her shoes and didn't find management's treatment of her particularly different from how I (a male) would be treated after complaining about the actions of anyone else (male or female) in the workplace - which is why I don't. HR is ineffectual and the company is against you regardless of whomever is at fault. It just wants one or the other party gone so things can go back to normal, so if it's you versus five other people it's easier to fire and rehire one than five.

> employers also have an obligation to handle the situation with empathy and integrity

And this line stood out at me as being divorced from reality especially at a big company.

I get it that we mostly want companies to be like this but I think it's also obvious that they're not. They are primarily profit motivated and we're lucky if they don't pollute the environment or commit atrocities in the process.

You can look for smaller companies that do it, you can put it in your own company, but if you really felt Apple would be like that then it's being a little naive.

I worked at one mid-size company that was acquired by a competitor who wanted to drive in the boot heel by firing the previous management in as embarrassing a way as possible. My boss was on the chopping block and had false charges levelled at him over email and summarily fired. He took it through the Australian workplace relations system to try to get some closure, until the government advised there's no law to prevent a company making anything up and firing you for it. He could have pursued defamation but that's also extremely difficult, long, and expensive, and he didn't have the money.

It was at that point I grew up in my career and decided you really can't trust any company to look out for you. That's not how it works.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#72

Post by yummyfajitas »

RodericDay wrote: post #58

> I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. The rest of your comment is trash.

There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal.

There's no contradiction, if the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not afraid, this proved her guilt, for witches characteristically pretend innocence and wear a bold front. Or on hearing of a denunciation of witchcraft against her, she might seek flight or remain; if she ran, that proved her guilt; if she remained, the devil had detained her so she could not get away.

From Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, the Cautio Criminalis ('prudence in criminal cases') in 1631.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#73

Post by sqldba »

kalleth wrote: post #44
pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

I'm astonished this is as high as it is. > did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? There are a huge number of reasons why you should not be expected to do this. The harasser can be in a position of authority, for example. Even separately to that (and i understand this is a reducio argument, but..) would you ask an abuse victim to speak to their abuser? No, they go straight to the poli…

> > HR is not your friend; it's one of the stakeholders' defense lines.

> This is a problem that needs fixing, rather than a status quo that needs defending.

Ah, but it's not a gendered problem, and outside of gender laws, there's not much you can do to "fix" something nebulous like this in corporate America.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#75

Post by aedron »

smsowmya wrote: post #24
pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

I did confront them and ask them to stop, but I still had to work with them, and they didn't entirely stop .. Unless you expect women to have taken Harassment 101 as a college course, they are really flying blind with this one .. when more than one person is involved or supervisors are involved, it's not that easy to say oh here, let me pull so many people into HR .. legalities aside, it's the end of a happy working…

I have been in adversarial relationships at my workplace that took a huge toll emotionally and eventually physically, just as you described. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I think it's good that you are talking about it and hope you recover - I still get stressed just thinking about those situations, years later.

I did learn the hard way how to deal with it, which I think is mostly about attitude. I think part of your ordeal was that you had certain expectations from the people around you, and a lot of the grief was having those broken. So first of all, I guess you get a little more realistic (or disillusioned...) about workplace relationships, leadership and company policies. Sad as it may sound, loss of innocence and thicker skin will help the next time.

Second thing is to nip things in the bud and not let anything fester. At this point I will straight up confront anyone if I feel treated unfairly and not let it rest. More often than not this solves the situation. If not, I will move on. Life is too short to stick around and being miserable somewhere, as long as you have the freedom not to.

It sounds from your writing like you've already learned these lessons, but I just wanted to share my experiences.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#76

Post by tyingq »

There's a curious lack of detail in this story. No direct quotes, or even reasonable level of detail to the accusations.

For example:

"One day, one of my supervisors jumped to my defense at a team event, in an awkward display of sexism."

I'm sure there's a way that a supervisor jumping to your defense could be sexist, but this isn't showing that, at all.

"At a lunch with several other coworkers, one of these men ordered me to summon the waiter and pay the bill, in the tone of a command to someone inferior and subservient."

Certainly odd behavior, but I'm not sure I would call it sexist. Arrogant for sure, but surely there's more context?

To be clear, I'm not saying she's wrong, just that this story isn't helping me understand what she went through, or that it was particularly sexist, versus just hostile.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#77

Post by RodericDay »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #72
RodericDay wrote: post #58

> I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. The rest of your comment is trash.

There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. There's no contradiction, if the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not a…

I see you posting your libertarian stuff all over HN. I'm not very surprised you also think the real victims here are her coworkers, whom you are unironically trying to liken to prosecuted witches.

You've turned this story about a woman being harassed at Apple into a story about her numerous anonymous male coworkers, and dudes at large, being targeted. It's fascinating.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#78

Post by adekok »

razakel wrote: post #5
nabaffyuc wrote: post #3

This kind of stuff should serve as a warning to all tech companies: the only way you can avoid PR shitstorms is by not hiring women.

How about just not hiring assholes? If you must hire an asshole, keep them somewhere they can't do any damage to the culture.

It's easier than you'd think. The sad truth about assholes is everyone knows. Everyone knows who they are. Everyone knows what they're doing. Everyone knows that management is aware of the assholes, and chooses to do nothing.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#79

Post by yummyfajitas »

pg314 wrote: post #69
tnones wrote: post #53

I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. I imagine there's a different side to this. Her coworkers noticed her getting treated differently and started teasing her about it, in a typical form of…

There are definitely multiple sides to this, like any story. Your imaginary account of the other side does strike me as presumptuous. You were not there, but you do feel entitled to paint a picture of what could have happened. It's like saying to somebody who said they got beat up in the park, that there is another side to their story: they were provoking the other party, and when they got into a fight they didn't ru…

Last time I was in Amsterdam, a friend of mine related the experience he had last night. (Details changed a bit to protect the guilty.) After being out late drinking, he was refused service at several bars for being too drunk. Then, while stumbling around in the streets in search of a bar that would serve them, this craazy biker stopped and punched him in the face completely unprovoked. Then he biked away. Finally he found a bar that would let him in, and gave him sympathy for his bleeding face. Shortly thereafter the asshole bartender kicked him out for no good reason. He's doesn't remember getting home.

Now I wasn't there. But I do feel entitled to paint an alternate picture of what could have happened. After recovering from his hangover he recognized that my alternate picture of what happened was actually pretty reasonable.

Was I wrong to suggest this alternate picture?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#80

Post by chickenking »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #31
dep_b wrote: post #14

Lots of down votes because of uncomfortable truth? I've seen this happen a few times and the only thing you need to do is honestly apply feminist values to all people without discriminating to start condemning it. It's like asking for respect for getting addicted to pills by pharmaceutical industries because that's a part of American culture. Maybe some criticism would be in place despite the "it's our culture" thing…

I would say it has downvotes because it's at best tangentially related and has some weird framing: it frames person A who gets feelings for person B as a victim when person B decides not to marry them. Arranged marriage seems pretty horrible, but in talking to an indian coworker recently, they commented that having to find your partner seemed pretty horrible to them. I really don't see any compelling parallels to pha…

I think a lot of non-Indians have this impression that arranged marriage means forced marriage or child marriage. I was talking to a South Korean guy and he thought we (Indians) get married at a young age or something equally bad. When I told him how it happens in India, he remarked "thats how it happens in his country as well".

Nowadays, we have matrimonial sites similar to your eHarmony. Guys/girls or their parents will create profiles and contact each other. If all their criteria match, guy will meet the girl, talk for some time and may say yes or no. Both the girl and the guy can say no. Nobody is forcing us.

I know the next question will be how can you choose a life partner in 30 minutes. To me, marriage involves a lot of understanding and compromise from both the parties. I was talking to a 65+ year old American recently. He was talking about something called a "spark" when a guy/girl meet. If you have that spark, you go ahead in the relationship. I don't know if this "spark" is real, I saw a lot of girls in person after liking their profiles, but didn't like them (or they didn't like me) in person.

I think at some point, our culture decided that interest of the society is bigger than personal freedom. They may have decided its better to find a partner this way rather than spending several years like in other cultures (I worked with an American who dated the same girl for 5 years and got divorced in 6 months). If you are going to say that such a lack of personal freedom is regressive, I don't feel that way. In America, you have the draft which to me means you loose the right to your body.

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