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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#61

Post by RubenSandwich »

vezycash wrote: post #27

I wonder why she didn't record everything - especially since both managers and HR were trying to gaslight her - making her doubt her sanity. If she'd gone to HR with recordings and they brushed aside her concerns then she'd have a much stronger case. Well as she said, a distressed mind doesn't think properly.

I think she followed the correct procedure. A problem was occurring and she went to HR to inform them. Would of it been better if she had evidence? Of course, but it's HR's ultimate responsibility to conduct the investigation. Just like it's the police's responsibility to conduct a investigation after an incident, not the victims. (This is of course best case which unfortunately didn't happen here.)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#62

Post by mtrimpe »

smsowmya wrote: post #34
vezycash wrote: post #27

I wonder why she didn't record everything - especially since both managers and HR were trying to gaslight her - making her doubt her sanity. If she'd gone to HR with recordings and they brushed aside her concerns then she'd have a much stronger case. Well as she said, a distressed mind doesn't think properly.

if i had the ability to be this clearheaded, we wouldn't be having this problem at all ..

Having been through an eerily similar episode as what you describe (but then as an LGBT employee) I did have an almost perfect paper trail but it still didn't help.

It takes an absolutely insane amount of energy to fight a huge company like this and even if you do everything right the chances are pretty good they'll wear you out first.

Best of luck with your recovery! It's been a really tough few years for me and I can't think of much to say except that I empathize with you and perhaps recommend this book [1] which looking back lists a lot of things that helped me get over it.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18693771-the-body-keeps-...

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#63

Post by vikascoder »

thr55993 wrote: post #47

Is not this the default situation white straight male faces? For example I was accused of somehow being responsible for slavery, LGBT discrimination, anti-immigrant policies etc.. That was just a few days after I moved to US, I had zero influence on those things and I was immigrant myself. And my coworkers made racist jokes about Russia.

I dont think its about white males and brown females. Such behaviour in any corporate setting or any workplace setting is vile. No one has to go through harrassment of any kind and thats why big companies at least invest some time in setting up HR policies to prevent such kind of culture to develop but as we see its never perfect.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#64

Post by csydas »

AlexB138 wrote: post #46
smsowmya wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the thing about questioning, I understand innocent until proven guilty, but putting the onus of everything on the victim is pretty unfair ..

No, actually, it's not. You're accusing someone of something very serious that puts their livelihood at stake. You need to have proof in that situation. It's a very intense and emotional experience, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to automatically assume the alleged victim is being honest.

I disagree slightly - having been in management and having dealt with multiple harassment issues, the responsibility of the target of harassment is to report it, and it is the management's responsibility to investigate even handedly. As outside observers, we need to try to restrain ourselves and refrain from brash judgements.

Harassment situations like these can be difficult to talk about publicly for a number of reasons; respecting the privacy of all parties involved, readers' natural tendencies to issue a judgement, and so on. My take has always been that anonymized public stories like these are mostly as awareness raising not specific accusations - the emphasis is on the difficulty of the experience, not really trying to bring a specific person to justice (usually, of course there are exceptions). I do think that, if the reader is receptive, such stories are useful for helping to understand what this sort of thing looks like and what someone who is targeted by harassment is going through and perhaps provide suggestions to those who can help on how to help.

But as for placing guilt itself, I'd suggest that's not the business of stories like this or the business of those reading it. Even when you are in a position where it is your responsibility to address an issue of harassment, getting the story in a fair way is very difficult, and it's really unpleasant for everyone involved. Those who are responsible for others of course need to get over the discomfort of such discussions and work to resolve the issues, whether it's by correcting behavior or helping to explain misunderstandings, which can still be hurtful even if they are not meant to be.

It is unfortunate though understandable why many businesses take a handsoff position out of fear of legal reprecussions, since such actions just make the entire thing worse. Pretending it's not happening doesn't help anyone, whether it's based on a misunderstanding or not.

edit: changed onus to "responsibility of" since I cross posted mentally from a different discussion

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#67

Post by highCs »

Whenever I'm dealing with something that is serious to me, I always clearly first state to myself 1) what I want and 2) what do I do if I don't get what I want. For example in this case, it could be: 1) Jack told me this and that and I consider this is inappropriate. I never want to be told that again in this company 2) I leave.

What I do next is that I make sure I communicate clearly those two points to whoever I think should get me what I want. For example, in that case, I would go see my manager and say: "Jack told me this and that and I consider this is inappropriate. I never want to be told that again in this company. If it happens again, I quit. Have you understood? (wait for his answer) What will you do to make sure it doesn't happen anymore?" (it is important to ask if he has understood, it forces him to go right in the middle of the circle you just draw on the floor, that put him in your territory, right under your guns).

Sometimes, you will have to apply 2). For example in this case, your manager would have to tell you something substantial about what he gonna do to stop that. If what he tells you is not substantial, tell him you are not satisfied and ask him again the same question: "what can you do to make sure it will stop?". Don't quit on that. Keep asking. Only apply 2) if he don't answer anymore. It's typically a situation where "you don't leave the shop until...". If your manager tells you to go see the HR department, tell him clearly again 2): "if I don't get what I want I will leave. Do you still want me to go see the HR department? Are you sure?". Apply pressure, at every step.

Do not have a discussion. Don't discuss the problem with your manager. Don't talk. Ask your question and wait for an answer. If he want to discuss, make him understand you won't.

It's crucial to apply 2) right away when you don't get what you want. I've found it's rarely the occasion to make a deal and make a compromise not so much because the deal is bad but because by doing so, they will start kidding you again.

I'm super happy so far with the result of this method. I get fantastic results from my family, employers, friends, from everybody. At first, you will feel like a freak. Then you will notice the others won't think so much that you are a freak but will think you are a strong person they should not kid with. You end up being respected.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#68

Post by PlugTunin »

tnones wrote: post #53

I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. I imagine there's a different side to this. Her coworkers noticed her getting treated differently and started teasing her about it, in a typical form of…

It wasn't sexist for a man to jump to her defense. Sometimes people defend other people, irrespective of gender. Had it been a woman who'd come to her defense, that too could be criticized. Her department likely has more men. Blame statistics.

Edit: Actually, OP characterizes gesture by the dude defending her as "sexist".(Above opinion stands.)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#69

Post by pg314 »

tnones wrote: post #53

I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. I imagine there's a different side to this. Her coworkers noticed her getting treated differently and started teasing her about it, in a typical form of…

There are definitely multiple sides to this, like any story. Your imaginary account of the other side does strike me as presumptuous. You were not there, but you do feel entitled to paint a picture of what could have happened.

It's like saying to somebody who said they got beat up in the park, that there is another side to their story: they were provoking the other party, and when they got into a fight they didn't run.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#70

Post by qntty »

smsowmya wrote: post #4

These things happen at most companies .. people get jealous and have different ways of dealing with it .. it's up to management to handle it well, but since no one talks about it, there is no management for it ..

Unfortunately it's a probably in many industries. I just read this article about the National Park Service yesterday

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/12/park-ser...

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