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Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

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Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#181
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the Old Testament? Christianity has plenty of barbarism in it.

It's called Old because there's a New Testament, which overrides the Old where applicable. And Jesus was a peace-loving man.

To clear up some common misconceptions around the Old Testament in part, but not in whole....

Firstly, Judaism is not the Old Testament at all. Christian and Jewish philosophy, and for that matter Muslim philosophy are all very different. As such, there are different interpretations of the same input data one could say. The problem is not even the input data is the same. (btw: the term Judaeo-Christian suggesting commonalities IMO is wrong and might as well not exist because it's lumping mostly different things together).

The Old Testament is a Christian edited version of various selections of Torah, namely 5 books, but even the divisions differ between Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestants. Beyond potentially reorganizing and excluding content, another disconnect is that the Torah according to most Jewish traditions is both a written and oral tradition. Most Jews who are knowledgable about theology would agree that Judaism is not explained, nor summed up, or even represented by the Old Testament, let alone the Torah itself. Further, oral traditions as well as cultural and religious duality are so important, that you can't actually read things like the Torah without knowing them. Philosophically, there's a pretty large difference between Judaism and Christianity on so many levels related to spiritual significance and directions of text.

Even inside Judaism there are huge divisions. Note that there are people who devote their lives to studying Torah and while I have a few interesting things to say about that (depending on the context, not nice things), I acknowledge it as intellectually interesting in that you have many people with different interpretations, including seeing the text itself as liquid or even adaptable (ex: to modern times). This kind of studying, questioning, and analysis is encouraged in Judaism. While it happens as well in modern Christianity, the views and treatment of text here are very different suffice to say without going into great detail.

Another large issue is translation. Ancient Hebrew is just that, ancient and not completely understood with 100% accuracy even among native modern Hebrew speakers and scholars. Even Aramaic and other languages of related texts have changed. Pronoun translation alone from a gendered language like Hebrew to English is bad enough for example, but factor in that often the path could be as muddled as Ancient Hebrew -> Greek -> Latin -> . There are of course more modern direct attempts, but quite often translations are not from the source, but rather translations of translations. Between translation, time, and oral traditions, there's a lot of signal decay.

As for other things about Judaism related to the Old Testament, the mention of it being 2.0 splits a lot here. Judaism has all kinds of commentary, supplementary texts, additional scrolls, and other books that are various degrees of "holy" or even "canon." Pretty much none of these exist in Christianity and only a few play any role or influence on the New Testament (aside: New Testament also morphed over time and had translation issues and so on). To make matters more interesting, some interpretations become part of oral law and even influence the readings themselves. Indeed, words are often changed or substituted by some people, while others would rather die than do anything but what they perceive as read things in their original form. If you purchase a book even that contains the Torah and what the Old Testament is based on, each version will have wildly different commentary, and sometimes even omissions.

I could go on, but since it's HN, let me just summarize a few things about the Old Testament in computer terms to get back to the point:

- Christianity vs. Judaism is not like a Git branch, but rather taking a few conceptual things and writing different implementations. There is little if any shared code, but maybe you could think of it as people who worked on an old project together and then had a split and built new things.

- New Testament is not v 2.0 but more of a re-implementation with what could argue is some code refactoring and slapping on a new interface (some things in common at a high level, but not at a lower level). Some (a lot) features are missing in the re-implementation.

- New Testament is heavy on marketing Jesus and his disciples, while ironically this would be an offense punishable by death by Old Testament and the Torah (you are not allowed to call yourself or be called the Messiah, the conditions for the Messiah are specifically laid out and according to these texts have not happened). New Testament would fail build tests and constraint checks.

- Christianity and Judaism have different licenses, plug-ins, benevolent overlords, and so on...

- The human compiler pretty much is broken because people aren't following the source of either most of the time, probably thankfully. I know the goats, sheep, etc. are probably happy aboutr that, let alone humans.

Well I am sure someone is going to hate me now or kill me for sacrilege. For the record, I the only thing I believe in is the electric guitar. I just grew up around religious people and spent some time studying it to understand what it was I didn't like.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People take cues and behave based on the norms and behavior of those around them. If I know and like person X, and they exhibit unethical behavior Y, I may conclude that Y can't be that bad because I know X and they are not bad. On the flip side if leaders in my industry or community are declaring "it's unacceptable to participate in this behavior and I will resign rather than be complicit in it" it's more likely tha…

The problem is that you only need say 10 people or less out of one million to make it happen. I respect people giving that pledge, would give it myself, but the practical impact is 0. Each day I walk by a large Bayer building who bought Monsanto who do ethical questionable things. Still each day hundreds of people enter that building. There is never a shortage of people who will do whatever they are questioned to do…

I think you are underestimating the number of people who need to comply to enable human rights abuses on a large scale.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#183
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is a potentially deadly weapon, bearing a serial number that might be especially useful if found at a crime scene. The other is a largely inconsequential part of your personal identity, which has routinely been used as justification for persecution throughout human history. (Personally: I support responsible gun ownership, but I don't think there's anything wrong with asking owners to register their serial number…

There's plenty wrong with asking people to register their serial numbers, especially when you combine these two statements: > asking owners to register their serial numbers > deadly weapon, bearing a serial number that might be especially useful if found at a crime scene

I'm legitimately curious here... what's the actual problem? I don't see any issue combining those two statements.

The second amendment gives you a right to own a firearm. Nowhere does it say you should be allowed to use it to commit criminal acts with impunity.

I view it like the requirement to have a license plate visible on my car, which seems reasonable given the risks involved in driving.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interest in Islam ≠ being a Muslim. I'm interested in Islam and not a Muslim. In fact I'd say most Trump supporters, hell most Americans of any political/religious persuasion even, have some amount of interest in Islam. I'm being somewhat facetious, but also not entirely - the point being that I don't think these consumer profiles could easily be converted into Muslim registries. But it's also all pretty moot - if Tr…

I understand your point. This was just a quick example to show that the data is there. I'm not saying that the FBI is going to start a campaign of Facebook ads. Facebook data is there, and it could be mined in more advanced ways to extract a database of its Muslim users. This data can extend beyond the "religion" entry in a profile, to analyze posts on religious holidays, vocabulary and idiomatic expressions, images…

Fair points. I still find it hard to imagine they would use fuzzy profiling from social media though - if they want to cast a wide net like that, they could just use country of origin - which is (one of) Trump's stated position(s), to shut down/more heavily regulate immigration from particular countries, rather than trying to go on a case by case basis. And they would avoid the bad PR that would come out of people getting to act on this pledge and other things like it.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

equating the purchase of a shotgun to having an ethnic or religious identity is a sad statement.

It's protected by our constitution in the same Bill of Rights that assures US citizens' other freedoms, such as religion. Liberals and conservatives both need to learn that they can't pick and choose, and on one hand hold in reverence the 1st Amendment and on the other hand reject the 2nd, or vice versa. Libertarians, on the other hand, recognize that all of the amendments are vital and represented a huge step forwar…

Does the second amendment apply to assault weapons, machine guns, bazookas, artillery guns? When it was written, there were only muskets.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#186
post #2

It's a lovely gesture, and an important sign of solidarity; however, it'a merely that, just a gesture. I hope that SV and the tech industry leverages its wealth and technical legal capabilities to fight these sorts of actions in court, unlike their responses to privacy intrusions by the federal government, British intelligence, and other foreign groups.

Over 1000 people, some of them very prominent, have pledged to quit their jobs if they are asked to do unethical things. How is that "merely a gesture"?

Because they won't do it.

This pledge is so full of get-out clauses it makes Swiss Cheese look robust. Many of the signers already work for companies that build large databases that could be used in bad ways by governments.

This is the Silicon Valley equivalent of saying "I'll move to Canada".

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#188
post #99

This initiative is cynical and gross. Here's why I would say that: Originally posted in a thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169587 Do you really need to have sent a pull request to remind you to not do things that make you feel morally bankrupt? That you signed it leads me to conclude that you have actually bought into the "Trump is a Nazi" rhetoric. I'll explain: 1. Neveragain.tech - the name itsel…

When he put a white supremacist in the White House this applies more to him than other presidents.

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#189
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't every birth have to be registered with the government?

For "social security" benefits. Yes. And look how that's turned out. It's deemed proof of citizenship (and a vital document) despite being just a poor quality piece of paper. The data is misused in just about every way. From colleges using it as a student id number to people committing crimes with it.

If someone is using a SSN as proof of citizenship, they are blatantly wrong. SSNs can and are issued to aliens.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10096.pdf

USCIS lists as common proofs of citizenship: US birth certificate, US passport, certificate of citizenship, or naturalization certificate.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/A4...

Re: Tech workers pledge to never build a database of Muslims

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's protected by our constitution in the same Bill of Rights that assures US citizens' other freedoms, such as religion. Liberals and conservatives both need to learn that they can't pick and choose, and on one hand hold in reverence the 1st Amendment and on the other hand reject the 2nd, or vice versa. Libertarians, on the other hand, recognize that all of the amendments are vital and represented a huge step forwar…

Does the second amendment apply to assault weapons, machine guns, bazookas, artillery guns? When it was written, there were only muskets.

Does the first amendment apply to Internet speech? When it was written, there was no Internet.
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