Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

dzone.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 50 posts

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#21

Post by logfromblammo »

mikestew wrote: post #15
wahern wrote: post #3

Yes, if you just want to coast. Coasting is certainly a perfectly legitimate goal, it just doesn't work in this industry. You have to constantly grow the breadth _and_ depth of your skill set. Depth because, from a theoretical perspective, change in computer science is exceptionally slow and incremental. The basic theories and algorithms in the latest machine learning craze, for example, are not much different from t…

Coasting is certainly a perfectly legitimate goal, it just doesn't work in this industry. Maybe not when you're young, but you can coast just fine as an older software dev. I'm doing it right now. Now, it might not look like coasting. Sure, I get pulled in to build test infrastructure from the ground up, prop a build server to fit the source control flow that a particular team has chosen, can walk a dev through writi…

I had a hard enough time dealing with other people's bullshit when I was 10. I can't even swallow my own bullshit now. And it seems like more jobs out there are constantly increasing their ratios of of bullshit filler to useful, productive work.

But I can't really tell whether it is objectively increasing, or if I am just getting better at recognizing it.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#23

Post by clifanatic »

Jemmeh wrote: post #6

When I look at software dev career boards most of the jobs are for senior roles. Look at Stack Overflow Careers and Glassdoor, just search "junior" then search "senior". I searched several major cities and they all had far more senior roles than junior/entry.

> most of the jobs are for senior roles.

They mean 3-5 years.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#24

Post by Silhouette »

mikestew wrote: post #9

Hi, kids! Oldster here. Y'all really need to quit with the "oh, $DEITY, I'm looking at the wrong end of 40 and I'll never work again!" Yes, you will. Yeah, give up that dream of game development (which you should have done anyway, regardless of age). Some brah with his half-assed "Uber for..." won't hire you, sure. But there are plenty of places that would love to have someone that comes in before noon, does the work…

(As a sidenote, the author just comes across as whiny because he's not treated as the special snowflake he really is. If you're so insulted by being asked to do FizzBuzz, then you ought to be able to knock it out in Brainfuck if required. But maybe you can't, eh, Mr. Hotshot?)

I remember going through a phase, probably around my mid-20s, when I got quite insulted by being asked to do such simple tasks in interviews. I never showed that during the interviews, obviously, but I had qualifications and several years of experience writing real production software, so what kind of idiot did they think I was and how was writing fizz-buzz going to demonstrate what I could do?!

A few years later, having more often sat on the other side of the interview table, I had learned that the number of people who have somehow achieved impressive looking qualifications from reputable institutions, gained several years of professional experience, and yet really can't write fizz-buzz, is astonishing.

Trivial programming exercises aren't there to determine a good programmer's level of skill, they're there to stop the interviewer wasting several hours on a no-chance candidate who slipped past the screening process and accidentally wound up face-to-face. You get to the interesting stuff that actually tells you something about the candidate after that, and if they're any good at all, your trivial challenge will be a two minute diversion that they solve while probably having a friendly chat with you about something else at the same time.

It's a little surprising to me that someone with as much experience as the author describes here hasn't realised this yet. It was one of the very first lessons I learned as soon as I started helping with interviewing candidates.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#25

Post by Silhouette »

mikestew wrote: post #16
rplst8 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing 40 now, I agree with most of this. However, I will say that the way recruiting works for devs is just atrocious.

However, I will say that the way recruiting works for devs is just atrocious. I heartily agree, but off-topic. It sucks for everyone, young or old. Maybe , just maybe, as the oldsters roll of to management that'll change, but meet the new boss...

The kind of recruiting described in the article here probably sucks more for older candidates, though. They're going to have more buzzwords to match up (or not) with greater experience, but more importantly, as developers get older and more experienced, they tend to be less reliant on this kind of recruitment anyway, preferring to rely on networking or other ways of making contact that bypass the buzzword-driven recruiter dance. If, for whatever reason, you're an older developer who knows what they're doing but isn't able to bypass the kindergarten stuff, you're going to be relatively rare among your peers, while if you're a 24-year-old hotshot looking for their second job the opposite is probably true.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#26

Post by Silhouette »

clifanatic wrote: post #7
earcaraxe wrote: post #4

"There were also a couple of companies that assigned me coding tests where they asked me to “print a ladder” and “find repeating numbers.” I rejected those tests not because of arrogance but because my skills were beyond what they thought is needed from the role. And yes, the roles were for a Software Architect. However, instead of testing my skills in architecture and logic, I had to print a ladder on the screen." T…

Yeah, I've never really understood being _offended_ by being asked to do something relatively simple (and honestly, those are actually pretty good problems). I might consider it a little amusing if somebody asked me to write FizzBuzz or something really basic, but I would shrug my shoulders and do it.

I agree, although I might be offended if an interviewer spent more than a few minutes on such things once it was clear that you could do them. However, that's more about not respecting the value of your time than the difficulty of the problem(s), just like expecting you to do a day of homework problem(s) before they even meet you.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#27

Post by Silhouette »

curtis wrote: post #20

I've certainly seen some evidence that getting hired is harder now that I'm older, but I'm not actually sure about the causation. I've seen lots of second hand evidence that getting hired is a lot harder now for everybody , regardless of age. This is just a theory, but I think we've got a situation where there are about the same number of software engineers out there looking for jobs as ever, and there are about the…

And it's actually a real problem because [professional HR hiring people] aren't, in general, competent to be screening applicants, and indeed can't be, unless they are former software engineers themselves.

Bingo. Unfortunately, in a situation where it is typically in both sides' best interests to play to their strengths and hide their weaknesses as much as they reasonably can (and sometimes more), it is hard to see how to fix that problem. I suspect the rules of the game need to change, so that technical experts are involved much earlier in the process, even if it means staff with software development or related roles have to step away from their normal work now and then to participate in recruitment activities.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#28

Post by curtis »

Silhouette wrote: post #27
curtis wrote: post #20

I've certainly seen some evidence that getting hired is harder now that I'm older, but I'm not actually sure about the causation. I've seen lots of second hand evidence that getting hired is a lot harder now for everybody , regardless of age. This is just a theory, but I think we've got a situation where there are about the same number of software engineers out there looking for jobs as ever, and there are about the…

And it's actually a real problem because [professional HR hiring people] aren't, in general, competent to be screening applicants, and indeed can't be, unless they are former software engineers themselves. Bingo. Unfortunately, in a situation where it is typically in both sides' best interests to play to their strengths and hide their weaknesses as much as they reasonably can (and sometimes more), it is hard to see h…

I suspect the rules of the game need to change, so that technical experts are involved much earlier in the process, even if it means staff with software development or related roles have to step away from their normal work now and then to participate in recruitment activities.

I totally agree with you. In an ideal world (at least a better one), I imagine it would go something like this:

Engineering: We need to hire some more people.

HR: Why are you telling us? That's not our problem.

Engineering: ?!

some time later

Engineering: OK, we've found a guy we want to hire.

HR: Excellent. We can take it from here.

Note: I am not exaggerating for effect here. I am totally serious. The hiring of engineers should not be an HR problem.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#29

Post by user5994461 »

clifanatic wrote: post #23
Jemmeh wrote: post #6

When I look at software dev career boards most of the jobs are for senior roles. Look at Stack Overflow Careers and Glassdoor, just search "junior" then search "senior". I searched several major cities and they all had far more senior roles than junior/entry.

> most of the jobs are for senior roles. They mean 3-5 years.

But ignoring the years you've done at other companies that are not hype enough and any experience that was not in the USA.

Re: Is Software Development Really a Dead-End Job After 35-40?

#30

Post by ImTalking »

I think software development is the greatest vocation for a 'older' person, you just have to look at it differently. I'm 57, and I KNOW I am unemployable and I'm fine with that.

To me, software is only a tool to get where I want. The potential is the products that I can produce, not the actual career of writing software, and I'm bringing my 30 years of business knowledge to the table.

I know what businesses want. I know what steps to take. I know what kind of relationship a business wants with their software vendor. Case in point: my current project is a very mature industry where the current market is 40% larger companies serviced by a couple of large ISVs, but 60% of the smaller companies can't afford these ISV platforms and rely on a few old outdated packages or roll their own. My sole client now is a very small operation but she's got great insight to where she wants to go and what functionality will take her there.. like social media integration, ongoing customer touches, SMS, etc (which the current crop of platforms don't have), which makes her the perfect first client. And she feels comfortable that I can become a good partner of hers because a) I know what to do, and b) I don't bullshit. And yes, she's very aware I'm 57. So what. And, unlike the younger developers, I've got a little money and security backing me so I can take the time to develop the platform full-time.

I know I can't get a job, but I can make one. What other industry can you do that at 57?

Post reply on HN