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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#361

Post by automatwon »

pmoriarty wrote: post #272
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I considered moving to Portland, until I read about how a big earthquake would pretty much completely wipe it out: http://www.oregonlive.com/earthquakes/index.ssf/2015/07/the_...

Might as well live in Washington at that point. No state income tax, while there is Oregon state income tax. Then again, Washington has sales tax, whereas Oregon does not. I used to live in Portland, and some peopled lived / worked in Vancouver, Washington, and drove to Portland to do all their shopping, groceries included.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#362

Post by nfriedly »

I spent a year in the Bay Area before moving back to Ohio, and this rings true:

> ...when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market.

I think that part of it, for me at least, is just having the confidence to ask for more.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#363

Post by mariojv »

logfromblammo wrote: post #189
hiram112 wrote: post #19

It all depends on your own situation. I, myself, moved from the Midwest to a very high COL East Coast city 7 or 8 years ago. My salary has pretty much doubled, though I imagine at this point it is about $40K more than I could get back home. But I live very frugally, and I have saved a lot of money. The plan is to soon get out of here and buy a nice place somewhere cheaper (South or Midwest) with cash and not worry ab…

I have already blacklisted SF, SV, and NYC for cost of living reasons, DC for typical job quality, and Chicago and Detroit for corrupt and bankrupt local government. The spouse has blacklisted St. Louis for arguably insane reasons, but it's out of bounds nonetheless. That leaves plenty of places to live, but not very many that are well known for having a lot of good software jobs. I don't really want to live in a bro…

Boston could be OK. Cost of living isn't spectacular, but it's much cheaper than the Bay Area, especially if you don't live in the city proper.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#364

Post by bandrami »

ryandrake wrote: post #298
bandrami wrote: post #122

DC/NoVa is hurting for programmers. Particularly if you can get a clearance, there's no shortage of work out here, at a (somewhat) cheaper cost of living.

I lived in NoVa for a bit, and found that employers would strongly rather you already have clearance, and don't really care if you're clear-able. Most places I looked had no uncleared work to fill so they'd literally have to hire me and sit me behind a desk doing nothing for months waiting for my clearance. That was usually the deal breaker. I'm currently probably not clearable anymore (married a foreign national) so…

That's definitely true: coming in with a clearance has a huge premium. But being able to obtain one has a premium too.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#365

Post by therealpeal »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181
skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

> the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work

> I lived in the south bay though

Well, yeah

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#366

Post by automatwon »

I wonder how much weather affects success, both for companies and individuals.

I worked as a Data Science engineer in Seattle (startup), and just moved to San Francisco this year (Google). I know this sounds trivial, but I think the more pleasant weather in the Bay Area is beneficial to my career. The lifestyle aspect is just icing on the cake.

I can't get up in the morning when it's rainy and cold. Of course, I do show up to work, just a little bit later in the day than if the weather was pleasant. I'm less refreshed. I think less clearly. I work less efficiently. I make more mistakes. I feel less healthy, because grogginess and caffeine consumption is positively correlated. That's the effect weather has day-to-day. Week-to-week, month-to-month, I can't help but avoid having S.A.D. (Seasonal Affective Disorder) in Seattle. Occasionally, I'd have an Existential Crisis, to use the term lightly, questioning whether my work is meaningful, whether I've sold out on my passion for programming. It helps that I work at a Google, but San Francisco weather definitely makes me feel more excited for work.

Maybe things will change when I want to own a house. Until then, even if my take home pay minus cost of living in the Bay Area is lower than Seattle, the Bay Area is still a better payoff, both in finances and purposefulness.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#367

Post by pedrosorio »

jartelt wrote: post #356
pedrosorio wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single person $150k gross pay (salary, stock, bonus). $94k net pay according to this: http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/salary Not being very frugal: - rents $2000K/mo 1BR apartment (single but wants some comfort in the Peninsula, no hellish commutes from East Bay) - transportation $200/mo - free lunch (and possibly dinner) at the company - eating out and groceries $300/mo - entertainment $200/mo That's $2700/mo…

A decent 1BR on the peninsula (in San Mateo, Redwood City, Mountain View, etc.) is likely closer to >$2,500 a month plus $200/month for utilities/renters insurance. For transportation, I pay $200/month for a 15 year old Civic with liability insurance. If you have a moderately nice car that isn't paid off, you are going to pay >$200/month (especially if you commute daily). If you cook moderately nice meals and drink s…

If we're talking about low balled figures, I guess we need to consider the income side of the equation as well. The original question depends a good deal on what kind of job you're doing in the Bay Area. If it's someone coming to the Bay Area to work for Google/Facebook or similar, the figure I used is way too low, for example.

"A decent 1BR" - It all depends on the definition of decent. I pay $2k for a 1BR walking distance to Redwood City downtown/Caltrain.

But forget about renting an apartment, if you want to save and you're single, having roommates allows you to rent in the Peninsula for much less than $2k/mo.

Also, I added $300 discretionary spending which lets you to cover some of the things you described, and you're left with $8k at the end of the year.

Can you easily save $50k while spending $3k on rent+utilities to live in a fancy apartment in the Peninsula ? Maybe not, but you certainly don't need to be "eating garbage dumped by grocery stores".

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#368

Post by WhitneyLand »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #259
WhitneyLand wrote: post #216

Does this article have anything insightful? It's easier to compare against Seattle: The housing is still very expensive, and you get only half as many sunny days. Why not compare to someplace like Austin? Most people can afford a real house, it's very sunny, great grad school, great culture, great startup scene. The SV big company advantage is not true. Most of the same big tech companies have a presence in Texas. An…

Austin's tech scene is weaker than Seattle's, and it's missing certain amenities that strong programmers in the US seem to like, like decent transit (Seattle isn't great but it's decent), being in a politically progressive state, and having lots of interesting outdoors stuff nearby. Also the weather between Austin and Seattle is basically a wash, while Austin is sunnier it also gets very hot in the summer.

All good points. But please note Austin is very progressive. It's an oasis of free thinking within a conservative state.

Also the utility of transit is location dependent. Would I live in Manhattan and own a car? No way, but Texas cities are very spread out. Most parking is free and everyone has a garage.

The outdoors are mostly great, but I admit tall mountains and ocean cannot be beat.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#369

Post by pmoriarty »

automatwon wrote: post #361
pmoriarty wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I considered moving to Portland, until I read about how a big earthquake would pretty much completely wipe it out: http://www.oregonlive.com/earthquakes/index.ssf/2015/07/the_...

Might as well live in Washington at that point. No state income tax, while there is Oregon state income tax. Then again, Washington has sales tax, whereas Oregon does not. I used to live in Portland, and some peopled lived / worked in Vancouver, Washington, and drove to Portland to do all their shopping, groceries included.

Seattle would also get hit hard in the same big earthquake. See the same article above.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#370

Post by heneryville »

mooreds wrote: post #250
eganist wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding one: if you're doing anything security related, DC's your friend.

Good point! And if you are into oil/gas, Houston. Marijuana, Colorado or Washington. Cars, Detroit (maybe?). Commodities, Chicago. Ag, Kansas City (maybe?). Outdoor experiences, SLC. Building something for Latin America, Miami. Ets, etc. I imagine there are many other cities that dominate in niches that I'm missing.

For the ignorant, what's AG? Google isn't helping.
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