Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#351

Post by jartelt » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 1:33 AM UTC

chrisper wrote: post #187

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

Yeah, same. I live in San Jose and feel 100% like you. I haven't even worked yet and only went to school here and I am already exhausted. This is why I chose not to live here after graduation.

If you get exhausted by working a lot, it's probably best to not work at a small startup or a company that is growing super fast. There are larger (usually public) companies in the Bay Area where people can work 9-6 type jobs and be great at their jobs. It can be team dependent, but there are people who work totally normal hours at google, apple, linkedin, etc. There are a lot of other mature companies people work at as well. It's not as sexy to say you work for them, but they pay you a respectable salary and don't have to take over your life. That said, ANY job can take over your life if you let it, whether that job is in Portland, Austin, Chicago, or San Francisco (not that it is necessarily a bad thing to have your job be your life).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#352

Post by stewartUK » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 1:36 AM UTC

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

It only makes sense to move there, if you have an incredible job offer on the table. Don't assume you might get one by moving there. If you have no access to some network there already, you much more likely will get access to some kind via amazing work and communication online, than by hanging out in a coffee shop in the Bay Area, burning money for rent and eating Ramen noodles.

Curious about how huge the difference in costs and life-quality might be? Play with https://teleport.org

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#353

Post by user5994461 » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 1:39 AM UTC

dingdongding wrote: post #207

nkassis wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there has also been an incredible growth in amazon stock value during that time. This isn't going to be typical of someone starting to work for Amazon today (or another tech company) as your stock grant was most likely calculated at a much lower stock price then it is now while theirs would be calculated on today prices and we don't know how the future will go. Experience definitively varies.

You're underestimating Amazon. I still think it can achieve same returns if not more in next 4 years like last 4 years

Tell that to the LinkedIn employee whose stock went down ;)

Stock is hit or miss. The big 4 had tremendous growth in the past few years and that made some people lucky. Don't count on that again in the future.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#354

Post by robocat » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 1:41 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #272

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I considered moving to Portland, until I read about how a big earthquake would pretty much completely wipe it out: http://www.oregonlive.com/earthquakes/index.ssf/2015/07/the_...

I wouldn't worry tooo much about earthquakes in any country with good local building codes. Background: I am from Christchurch New Zealand; my parents live on top of the 2010 Canterbury earthquake, and my sister lives on top of the 2016 Kaikoura earthquake.

Avoid living or working in brick buildings (they fall apart).

If worried, perhaps avoid high tsunami risk zones (that lack high ground, roads are less useful since they will be unusable during large earthquakes).

If you catalog your risks, earthquake death or disability is probably low in scheme of things.

From my experience, if you work in software with a laptop, earthquakes are not likely to affect your work too much.

Unless you have a neurotic partner, in which case avoid earthquake zones, because they lose the plot when the earth takes control.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#355

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 1:54 AM UTC

falsestprophet wrote: post #110

sbov wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, but I bought a house. Just outside of LA there are cities with some of the best public schools in the state (and some the country), and you don't have to pay $1.5 million+ for a house in the district.

Which cities?

[deleted]

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#356

Post by jartelt » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 2:00 AM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #328

mr_pink wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary Have you actually done this? Know anyone who has? This seems completely implausible, outside of some extreme frugal lifestyle cases (I'm talking "eating garbage dumped by grocery stores" level frugal)...

Single person $150k gross pay (salary, stock, bonus). $94k net pay according to this: http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/salary Not being very frugal: - rents $2000K/mo 1BR apartment (single but wants some comfort in the Peninsula, no hellish commutes from East Bay) - transportation $200/mo - free lunch (and possibly dinner) at the company - eating out and groceries $300/mo - entertainment $200/mo That's $2700/mo…

A decent 1BR on the peninsula (in San Mateo, Redwood City, Mountain View, etc.) is likely closer to >$2,500 a month plus $200/month for utilities/renters insurance. For transportation, I pay $200/month for a 15 year old Civic with liability insurance. If you have a moderately nice car that isn't paid off, you are going to pay >$200/month (especially if you commute daily). If you cook moderately nice meals and drink some alcohol, that food budget is likely going to be >$400/month. Plus going out to happy hour once a week, which isn't that uncommon, can easily cost you an extra $30-50 a week (or more). A good number of people have college debt as well, so add a monthly payment for that. I agree with you that saving is definitely possible when single and making >$100,000. I just think you low balled most of your numbers to prove your point.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#357

Post by mercutio2 » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 2:08 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #324

bcheung wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting 13.3%? Most likely a software developer is going to be in the 9.3% bracket. And it is also a graduated bracket system so you are only paying that 9.3% on income over $51K. See https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator On a $150K income you are going to be paying an effective rate for CA around 7%.

You're omitting MediCal. It ends up being about 13% (marginal) after it is added.

13.3% is the marginal tax for people making over $1 million/year in CA. People in that income bracket are not worrying about whether they should move to the Bay Area.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#358

Post by falsedan » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 2:19 AM UTC

mr_pink wrote: post #195

nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary Have you actually done this? Know anyone who has? This seems completely implausible, outside of some extreme frugal lifestyle cases (I'm talking "eating garbage dumped by grocery stores" level frugal)...

I did it, paying $3400/month rent & supporting a family. Salary took care of living + unexpected expenses, and stock grants/purchase plans took care of the saving + knowing where to keep the money (thanks, years of scraping by on non-SF-ludicrous pay packets).

edit I don't know what a 401k is good for (I already have two retirement saving schemes in other countries), mostly did staycations since SF is such a tourist destination.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#359

Post by WhitneyLand » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #303

tinbadtin wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree with the OP, I know a few Googlers (my wife used to work there) who transferred from satellite offices (say Venice or NYC) to MTV and all of a sudden their careers took off. Generally, being physically there where the action is (HQ) seems to pay off for ones career.

One time I talked to a Google recruiter, and that was the message he conveyed. "Sure, you can work at a satellite office, but if you are interested in your career, Mountain View is where you want to be."

Two caveats to that:

- I promise you that's only true as far as your project's priority. For example if Google Maps in Colorado is more important to the company, at the moment, than some other project at HQ, then working on that project at HQ is not better for your career.

- Remember a recruiter is a sales person. Some are honest, some will tell you what serves their own interest.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#360

Post by ap22213 » Thu, Dec 15, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

If you want status, sure. But, if you're relatively good and want money, then no.

Economics is about supply and demand. And, every city in the world wants high-end developers. Many companies are willing to pay a lot because they have a shortage. But keep in mind that they're looking for someone who's good in more than just programming.