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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#281

Post by kobeya »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #239
kobeya wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in the South Bay my whole life and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There are subcultures of workaholic stress magnets, but they are easily avoided. I work 40 hour weeks, have non-tech hobbies and weekends are sacred. Your experience may be typical of the crowd you hang with, but not the valley as a whole. I'm also mystified at the assertion that SF would be better in this respect. The c…

I've lived in San Jose from birth to 19 years old (worked one year at a startup) and I can see where you're coming from, but you must be blind if you have no idea what I'm talking about. The friendships I cultivated while growing up there are sacred, but those friendships would have been impossible if I didn't meet them while growing up. If I moved to SJ from somewhere else at 19+ I know I would be miserable, because…

I don't know what to say. Get out more, I guess? Change your group of friends? There's a million people that live here and I'm always meeting new people and striking up conversations. Some stick, some don't. I actually don't hang out with anyone from my childhood anymore, as I've made so many new friends over the years.

I'm glad things worked out for you in any case.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#282

Post by harterrt »

qntty wrote: post #126
harterrt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could also be an artifact of the metric. I call this the "Geico" fallacy. Geico advertises that "People who switch to Geico save 15% or more". Notice that people who would lose money by switching to Geico should rarely switch. Accordingly, this metric will usually be positive. Consider that people moving to a new city for a job may need more incentive to move.

This is really insightful. Does this fallacy have an well known name?

Thanks!

While I agree with the others calling this a type of sampling bias, I've seen this type of error frequently enough that I think it deserves a more specific name.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#283

Post by EdJiang »

jrm415 wrote: post #61
ammon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT I incorrectly multiplied the tax rate to the salary difference, and said that this was a 5$ difference. This is totally wrong (as multiple people point out below). I'll leave my original embarrassing comment as a cation to not write stupid things :) == I just added in a mention of the tax difference. But the numbers are 13.3% in CA vs 0% in WA. That's significant, for sure. But 13% tax on $33k is about $5k. I do…

If you move to CA, you need to pay state tax on your entire earnings, not just your raise. 13.3% of 140k is more than 18k, which is certainly significant.

I believe you can deduct state from federal tax, which would save ~2.5% in marginal tax. In addition, social security phases out at ~120k so that's another 7.5% savings. So the difference is almost a wash if I understand correctly?

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#284

Post by smsm42 »

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I live in the BA and work in tech, and I'm not super-stressed. Neither my peers seem to be. It doesn't mean we don't work - but not more stressfully than I'd expect to work anywhere else. Maybe I'm just lucky.

The downside is everything is so expensive. Housing, of course. But also everything else too, services, other things. If you can live frugally, it may be to your benefit - you get higher income and keep low spending, win. But if you can't or work lower income job, it may be a problem.

The upside is there are a lot of exciting opportunities around, both in employment and in conferences, lectures, events, etc.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#285

Post by ceras »

mr_pink wrote: post #195
nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary Have you actually done this? Know anyone who has? This seems completely implausible, outside of some extreme frugal lifestyle cases (I'm talking "eating garbage dumped by grocery stores" level frugal)...

Sure, I did this (and more if you count my 401k). I don't think I was that frugal: I certainly didn't want for anything, and ate my fair share of sushi.

Like the article mentions, saving a lot is easy if you're fine with a roommate and living in a non-luxury apartment, but if your housing standards are higher than that then it's tougher.

This is, of course, at the compensation levels talked about in the article. Some companies (early stage start-ups, banks) pay much less.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#287

Post by ryandrake »

nostrademons wrote: post #34
twblalock wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

You would have to be extremely well paid and frugal to save $100K in two years. Sure, it's do-able, but wow. Of course, this is HN, so there's always someone who knows someone's brother's roommate who makes $150K/year at Google but that's a pretty high salary. And to be able to keep $50K of that given the cost of everything? I don't see how it's possible unless you are single, have no kids, no existing debt payments, don't put anything away into IRAs, 401ks, etc. and are are extremely frugal.

But if you do and are, you have $100K. Congratulations. That does you no good when homes are $1M+. Keep saving.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#288

Post by softawre »

willholloway wrote: post #202
danwalmsley wrote: post #159

I did the math on this about 1.5 years ago and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. I was, at the time, in a CTO-level position at a VC-funded startup and so had plenty of opportunities in the Bay, but in the end opted to live in a quiet country town about 2.5 hrs drive away and work from home in a lower-key role. I have a 3yo kid and another on the way, and I do not regret my decision for one second, part…

He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune; for thay are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief.

I get that. But weighing family > enterprise is pretty easy to do.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#289

Post by ryandrake »

plandis wrote: post #72

This doesn't factor in stock compensation AFAIK. For instance, I started at Amazon at around $90k in salary plus signing bonus of $20k so like $110,000 my first year out of college back in 2013. I made about the same in 2014. In 2015 I got promoted to SDE2 and my salary is closer to $118,000. But additionally I also got like $60k in 2015 in stock and this year my stock compensation is just about $100,000. I'd imagine…

Keep in mind stock vests after some time and then you're back to base salary. I've found the practice of yearly "evergreen" grants to be rare even in the Valley.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#290

Post by sjg007 »

pmoriarty wrote: post #272
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I considered moving to Portland, until I read about how a big earthquake would pretty much completely wipe it out: http://www.oregonlive.com/earthquakes/index.ssf/2015/07/the_...

If the super volcano explodes do you really want to be alive after?
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