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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#231

Post by pfarnsworth »

If you are young, single and in tech, then it makes sense. You don't care if you share an apartment or even a room, you'll make good money and you'll acclimatize to how ridiculous the prices are over a few years.

If you are older, and you have a spouse and/or kids, then it makes less sense. It actually makes no sense if you're coming from a low cost area, and more sense if you're moving from NYC to Bay Area. If you're coming from a low cost area, you will suffer, because even if you owned your house outright, if you sell it it may be a decent downpayment, and then you'll have to spend a lot of money on mortgage. Plus school, commute, etc. I wouldn't recommend it in that situation.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#232

Post by eganist »

mooreds wrote: post #224
padobson wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on what you want to do. If programming is programming and programming is just a job, then you can do that anywhere there are programming jobs, and with so many companies offering remote work, that could be anywhere. But if programming is what you intend to bring as a founder - if it's simply a means to get the burning ideas out of your head and into a product, then there's a much smaller number of p…

> you need to be able to have coffee with a VC If you are building a company that needs VC funding. Most companies don't. "Venture Capital is the wrong source of capital for the vast majority of entrepreneurial ventures" http://avc.com/2005/03/dont_take_the_m/ If you aren't looking to raise VC but instead want to be part of a vibrant tech ecosystem, well, that opens up more mid tier cities. For starters: San Diego, L…

Adding one: if you're doing anything security related, DC's your friend.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#233

Post by petters »

amelius wrote: post #91
harterrt wrote: post #32

It looks like the salary differential of $33k listed in the article is gross earnings. After taxes this would just barely cover the rent differential of $1.5k/mo ($18k/year). Note that this is the best case scenario according to their estimates. What troubles me is the use of median rent to compare housing costs. As rent increases, renters are likely to downsize offsetting some of the rent increase. I'd be willing to…

Best is to move there in an RV :)

People have lived in an RV in Google's parking lot. Being on the campus all the time, they could save almost all of their salary.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#235

Post by bryant »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181
skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

> The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me.

Oh god, you really quantified the cruft that made me hate the place. The bay is sublime in its beauty but could only be perfect for me if the population was subbed out for Austin's or DC's (which are in many ways opposite, but they're also far more distant from SFBay than they are from each other).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#236

Post by sedachv »

strictnein wrote: post #205
rconti wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living…

I get what you're saying, we were in a 1800sqft home before this and a 780sqft home before that. After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space. The only time we notice the size of it is when we get back from a vacation. Also, once you have kids, homes feel much smaller. Before kids, we lived in a 600sqft rental du…

> After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space.

Who does the cleaning, you or your partner? I never got used to cleaning a larger space. It is definitely a huge waste of time, vacuum bots only help marginally. Also annoying is walking or especially moving something from one end of the dwelling to the other.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#237

Post by stephencanon »

DarkTree wrote: post #73
stephencanon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are going to transfer somewhere at the same pay rate, transfer somewhere cheaper and nicer than Seattle. Lots of options (I'm partial to northern New England, personally, as I like having proper winter).

I miss true seasons. Hoping to make it back East in the future. Any recommendations for NE other than Boston (which I like)?

Providence has been perpetually on the cusp of having a tech scene for about 20 years now; it's starting to take off a bit, and still reasonably cheap even in the beautiful areas around Brown/RISD.

There's a lot going on just under the radar in the smaller college towns. Amherst/Northampton MA, Burlington in VT, Hanover/Lebanon in NH. A lot of what's going on is in fairly small shops that don't have job postings, but would create a position for the right candidate, which makes it hard to find them if you're not in the area, unfortunately, but there are definitely some medium-size firms, too. These have a very different feel from Boston, though, so maybe not what you're looking for.

I also know a few folks who live near me (Hanover/Lebanon) and commute to Boston or NYC (2-3 days a week, WFH the other days). This is a pretty sweet deal if you can make it happen.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#238

Post by eganist »

astrange wrote: post #212
kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

I've carefully cultivated non-tech friends in SF/South/East Bay, to the point where I actually need to meet more tech people now since I have no idea what work life is like at other companies. It's been worthwhile and we do plenty of stuff, but you have to be prepared to drive very long distances to see anyone. And many people who don't get into tech move away, so practically everyone is younger than me (and male) an…

> DC

I'm assuming you've never paid us a visit :( DC literally has the second largest mass transit system in the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_rapid_tr...

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#239

Post by kLeeIsDead »

kobeya wrote: post #220
kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

I've lived in the South Bay my whole life and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There are subcultures of workaholic stress magnets, but they are easily avoided. I work 40 hour weeks, have non-tech hobbies and weekends are sacred. Your experience may be typical of the crowd you hang with, but not the valley as a whole. I'm also mystified at the assertion that SF would be better in this respect. The c…

I've lived in San Jose from birth to 19 years old (worked one year at a startup) and I can see where you're coming from, but you must be blind if you have no idea what I'm talking about. The friendships I cultivated while growing up there are sacred, but those friendships would have been impossible if I didn't meet them while growing up. If I moved to SJ from somewhere else at 19+ I know I would be miserable, because like it or not most people are exactly like I described in my original comment. The type of people we grew up with and the type of people who migrate here are VASTLY DIFFERENT. Thankfully you and me could avoid them, since we were "fortunate" enough to grow up in the south bay. I'm thankful for my unique experience, but it's just that: a unique experience.

As far as SF goes, I was talking about 5-6 years ago. I've heard its way worse these days. And it's going to keep getting worse, because the south bay is a cancer. It wasn't until I moved away when I realized that.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#240

Post by astrange »

nostrademons wrote: post #34
twblalock wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

When you say a typical engineer's salary, I feel like you mean a high performer at Google with a rich family.

I make about that much, at a company without free food perks that doesn't give me amazing stock bonuses (my social skills are too bad to negotiate them…) and I live frugally but could never save that much after $2k/mo rent! And there's no huge parental loans for me.

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