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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#271

Post by krenoten »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #226
josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

>go to Bay Area to a big firm to build your reputation Doesn't make sense. The big 4 have campuses across the country. Instead of telling people to move to SV I would recommend making sure to get into the right (big 4 or not) team and role for your career. Just fixing bugs at big SV company will not help much. You want to make sure you have a chance to contribute something to show your skills on an innovative or lead…

Joining one of the FANGs as your first job is a great way to kill your chances of developing a highly diverse skill set early on. Good luck doing anything interesting when there are 120 superior engineers who are bored out of their minds all vying for the opportunity. Working in a smaller company that has real problems to solve tends to be much more rewarding. There's a reason the technical leadership at the big 4 tends to be comprised of engineers who came from elsewhere.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#272

Post by pmoriarty »

josh_carterPDX wrote: post #143

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build you…

I considered moving to Portland, until I read about how a big earthquake would pretty much completely wipe it out:

http://www.oregonlive.com/earthquakes/index.ssf/2015/07/the_...

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#273

Post by westoncb »

krenoten wrote: post #263
mooreds wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to be able to have coffee with a VC If you are building a company that needs VC funding. Most companies don't. "Venture Capital is the wrong source of capital for the vast majority of entrepreneurial ventures" http://avc.com/2005/03/dont_take_the_m/ If you aren't looking to raise VC but instead want to be part of a vibrant tech ecosystem, well, that opens up more mid tier cities. For starters: San Diego, L…

I've been far happier as an engineer in NYC and Berlin than SF. Gentrification has made SF a pretty boring place to be, and I felt that my overall sense of creativity plummeted there when I was surrounded by so few people from different backgrounds.

Agreed. I ended up moving across the bay and living in Berkeley while working in SF just for that reason.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#274

Post by eganist »

astrange wrote: post #243
eganist wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DC I'm assuming you've never paid us a visit :( DC literally has the second largest mass transit system in the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_rapid_tr...

Sorry, meant the suburbs I guess. Some friends in the military and government definitely complain about how long it takes to drive a short distance. I've only ridden the Metro once, yeah.

I mean, I'm in the suburbs... Haha

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#275

Post by dantillberg »

Henchilada wrote: post #93

This whole dialogue shows a very laborer-centric view of the world. What is missing from this entire conversation is the concept of being an employer/founder or independent consultant. If you want to bootstrap a startup, the Bay Area cost basis is going to destroy your nest egg until you can raise capital. Also, this conversation implies that you are employed 100% of the time, ignoring any cases where you quit, are f…

To add a personal case: I lived in Boston working full-time (and all the time) for about seven years before getting sick and having to take a year off of work.

When you game out salary vs cost of living for a region, you tend to make an assumption that you'll be employed 100% of the time. But once you break that assumption, it can change the dynamics considerably. The $2000/mo you spent comfortably on rent while working full-time quickly becomes an uncontrollable drain on savings when you stop.

For me, I decided to move to a place (CO, an hour north of Denver) with a lower cost of living (and for me, a better quality of living, too), a place where I could live comfortably even if I didn't (or wasn't able to) work full time all the time. And if I do work full time, I could potentially "retire" in my 40s if I wanted, where "retire" probably means "work on whatever I want without needing to get funding," and/or "be a parent," etc.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#276

Post by gnopgnip »

twblalock wrote: post #14
ammon wrote: post #2

When people compare salaries / the cost of living in different cities, they often fail to account for the fact that many people don't spend their entire salary in the local economy. If you are trying to save money (or pay for college, donate to a cause, or buy a Ferrari) this costs the same no matter where you live. You should only apply the cost of living adjustment to housing (and maybe food). When you do this, liv…

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

You should not buy a home unless you are going to live in the same place for 10+ years. Especially if you get a rent controlled apartment, owning a home does not make financial sense in the bay area.

The other big thing to help with home ownership is to get married. With double the income it is a lot easier to save for a downpayment.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#277

Post by x0x0 »

derefr wrote: post #99
x0x0 wrote: post #13

The article is poorly argued. Paragraph 2 -- if you pick a winning startup (uber, etc) then the bay area is great! Well, yes. The problem is picking that winning startup, and really, if you're good at that, stop wasting your life as an engineer and go invest money for a living. We shouldn't expect eng to be able to pick better than vcs, and their hit rate isn't great. It also uses pre-tax salaries, not after tax sala…

I don't know if the article was really talking about "winning" startups. Growth+revenue aren't really representative of whether a company is "winning"—they're just representative of a company that's properly doing the thing investors want it to do, growing at the expense of all else. If you're an investor, you need a company to succeed in a long-term sense: to pay out at the other end of the bet that started it. That…

That is a good point. I do think though that even growing startups prefer to pay in equity though, at least until you get to the pseudo-IPO ultra late stages. As recently as a couple years ago, AirBnB gave me a fairly cash poor offer, but wanted me enough that when I turned it down both my future manager and a VP eng tried to get me to reconsider.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#278

Post by icantdrive55 »

amelius wrote: post #91
harterrt wrote: post #32

It looks like the salary differential of $33k listed in the article is gross earnings. After taxes this would just barely cover the rent differential of $1.5k/mo ($18k/year). Note that this is the best case scenario according to their estimates. What troubles me is the use of median rent to compare housing costs. As rent increases, renters are likely to downsize offsetting some of the rent increase. I'd be willing to…

Best is to move there in an RV :)

It's too bad living in an RV is a good idea.

That said, RV parks are pricy and many have waiting lists.

I have known guys who try to find cheap/free parking; and it's a constant battle. "You can'park here". Cops that are beyond vigilant. I could go on forever.

If anyone is considering living in a vechicle; I honestly think a converted commercial van is the way to go.

I've lived in the Bay Area my entire life, and housing is just cruel.

The problem is so bad I would like to see state/federal/local county land opened up immediately for campers. Plus--companies should provide low rent/free areas to camp. Why is Walmart the only business that saw this a need for overnight parking?

All your bosses want to live in the nice parts of the Bay Area, and they can.

For everyone else housing is just a nightmare. If I was an employer; I would have a hard time looking my employees in the face.

(I know I not going to solve anything, but I'm right now sitting in my truck on Bush street; and there a lot of building--luxury condos. Since as long as I can remember it's been just expensive condos. Something most of us will never be able to afford.)

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#279

Post by [deleted] »

amelius wrote: post #91
harterrt wrote: post #32

It looks like the salary differential of $33k listed in the article is gross earnings. After taxes this would just barely cover the rent differential of $1.5k/mo ($18k/year). Note that this is the best case scenario according to their estimates. What troubles me is the use of median rent to compare housing costs. As rent increases, renters are likely to downsize offsetting some of the rent increase. I'd be willing to…

Best is to move there in an RV :)

[deleted]

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#280

Post by estsauver »

mooreds wrote: post #250
eganist wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding one: if you're doing anything security related, DC's your friend.

Good point! And if you are into oil/gas, Houston. Marijuana, Colorado or Washington. Cars, Detroit (maybe?). Commodities, Chicago. Ag, Kansas City (maybe?). Outdoor experiences, SLC. Building something for Latin America, Miami. Ets, etc. I imagine there are many other cities that dominate in niches that I'm missing.

St. Louis tends to be one of the best cities for Ag stuff.
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